Fortunately I had a couple decades of business life before the web, which meant that on first meeting I asked (if not so bluntly concise):
* what are your expectations?
* what is the timeframe?
* what is the budget?
Followed by explaining that I required payment up front for each milestone (10% to 50% initial) depending on project size. On my contract terms including change order requirement.

Yes, I got told I was too expensive, too unreasonable, got offered all sorts of future prospects... I’m sure we all know the rigmarole. But it allowed me to disengage quickly cheaply; preventive red flag whack-a-mole. Better to not work than to work for nothing but aggravation.

What is interesting is that when I ‘fired’ my webdev clients to concentrate on my own sites they slowly got replaced by ad clients (selling ad space directly) and much the same attitudes prevail.
It’s like déjà vu all over again.
—Yogi Berra

You might benefit from learning more about screening (pre-qualifying) clients. It's an ugly part of the job, and you could lose out on some business, but it will make things easier for you in the long run plus give you more time to focus on the clients who actually care about what you're doing and who will give valuable feedback. Another benefit is that it helps narrow down your true target market. There isn't a one-size-fits-all formula either, so you'll want to start with basic client requirements (plus the ability to verify them) and then modify them as time goes on.

@iamlost, nice you had enough time to build business experience prior the web. I also tried what you explain but had difficulties in the implementation of those rules, partly because here, clients (and service providers) can lie, and they do, meaning one can get the great but false answers to key questions being made.

@JOSourcing, yes, at some point started treating clients as if they had to pass some test to see if they were worth my time. I remember clients being absolutely surprised when I said no, quickly, and without need to hear anymore, why? I told them "we are talking, it's not a you-hire-me thing, I have to figure out if this is worth my time too".


Meetings aside, in my region most clients will ask you to put in paper in great detail what you would do and how much you will charge them. This is very common and I would say "the norm". The problem is giving away pricing, if you don't give enough detail (to avoid exposing your detailed prices) they will complain and ask you again. This could mean they end up trying to pick some of the things you offer (as if that was possible) and try to hire someone else. They would also try to use your detailed papers to negotiate with other service providers. And more than often, many service providers end up wasting time creating papers instead of working.

Since a while ago I just refuse doing this. I try to make things clear on a meeting (a good proper conversation) and that's it. Anyone asking for detailed reports and prices is sent home with a no-way, it's such a waste of time, the amount clients who demand this in detail and turn into real projects is... absurdly minimal. I wasted too much time creating papers, I don't do that anymore.

amount clients who demand this in detail and turn into real projects is... absurdly minimal - I agree, they are mostly looking for clues on what that should be doing.

I had a client once who who argued over £5.....

Half the battle is vetting the client upfront. My time is more valuable to me than it will ever be to them.

If there is no immediate meeting of the minds then move on. There's always another client. You can NEVER get your time, effort, or even expense back from dealing with a client who FAILS to fulfill their end, or has unrealistic expectations.

Beware the bad payers, often large companies whose accounts departments think they can pay on 120 days nett, because they are big and you are not. Often the contacts that are handing out the work aren't aware of this. It helps having work you can take down if payment is not forthcoming in a reasonable time.

It helps having work you can take down if payment is not forthcoming in a reasonable time.

We had one web dev client who was very late in paying and rarely even returned our messages. After more than a month of numerous warnings, I decided to stop playing nice. They never changed the password for the FTP account they gave us to use to upload the files to their server. So I gave them a new web site consisting of a splash page saying the site site is down for lack of payment. The only reason it took them several days after that to finally send the full payment is because no one at the company looked at their site and didn't even notice for several days. (Awwww, too bad they didn't have a backup of their site that they could have used to restore.)

Morals of the story:
- Like Mark A said, always try to be in a position where you can remove the work if payment is not made (or better yet, require payment in full before complete delivery).
- If you give clients FTP/admin access, ALWAYS turn off access (or at least change the password) as soon as their access is no longer needed. (We limit FTP access at the firewall level by FTP and have specific accounts that we use.)
- Always have backups of your site/work.
- Most importantly, don't screw with Life in Asia. ;)

I used to charge 40% up front, 30 on template / design / layout completion and the final 30% on completion of the site.

If it's someone is going to be awkward about paying, you either put up with it, or end the arrangement. I had a client that was notoriously slow at paying, but, I have to say, they always paid. I put up with it for 20-years, so it was a good relationship and i learn't not to get too worked up over the sluggish payment. Oh, and I increased their prices to accomodate for the slower payment.

We always took up references on any new clients.

On the other side of things, I had a client that would pay by return, and that was, of course, a breath of fresh air. Each time they called up to get a project going i'd jump.

For larger projects we always had staged payment terms, and the project starter fee was always a good indication of their payment patterns.

I always I found it useful to create a contract which set out expectations on both sides. I also added optional extras that I knew they would need: For example, training on how to use the cms.

I'd never take on a project I couldn't handle, so there would never be awkward discussions. Better to decline at the outset than to create a burden.

There really is no easy answer as every person and company is different.

Enjoy it, and remain professional.

Many years ago lots of jobs around this were easy, piece of cake and I would start and finish the projects FAST, but in general people were more respectful about something they didn't understand (Web and coding), and they would allow people to do their jobs. Today things are different.

I used to charge 40% up front, 30 on template / design / layout completion and the final 30% on completion of the site..

I used to work around something like that, sometimes 40% - %60. The thing is as unbelievable as it might sound, many clients started delaying everything because being honest, they manage their own business in terrible ways and will impose their bad habits on the people they hire (you). So, many things I could do in a month max, ended taking 2, 3, 6 months, and that's not good.

Watching TV shows as "The Profit" made evident how many people started working under this structure and ended up having more meetings than needed, reminding the client of the schedule and payments, how to put things in order (texts, product descriptions, etc) and suddenly they became their client assistants but didn't noticed it.

@Live in Asia: good points, I also took some safety measures like those you describe, but the bad things is I think to myself that was mostly reactive, things can go badly and while I had contingency plans, there is no way to get back time spent on something that got stuck.

I'd never take on a project I couldn't handle, so there would never be awkward discussions. Better to decline at the outset than to create a burden.

I have issues with this. Sure I agree and I don't take projects I can't handle, but at least in my region you might have meetings talking about a project size "10" and agree, but then the client surprises you with lies, hidden information and the project is something VERY different. Some people lie up front, some people don't know what they are doing. Remember, many didn't built their business telling the truth, but instead changing it, twisting it. Same way as they do while hiring an assistant, they might try hiring a developer. In my region many people hide under the "but.. it's just 10 products... well it's like 50, 100 I don't remember but you can handle it", and it might happen after you are 1 month inside the project while drinking coffee at their meeting room. Some people do ask to get their faces hit with a laptop.

Sometimes working with clients might end up like walking into a bad love relationship: many things are really hard to spot because they hide it se well.

All the above is merely covering your six before you say "I do."

This is nothing new regarding the human experience in business. Gauge your greed their greed to see if you can come to a "meeting of the minds" which, after all, it how business is done.

Meanwhile, get bucks up front, no matter what. Make sure your agreement has escape clauses, both for you and your client.

Scratch that.

Client couldn't follow instructions despite being clearly advised, incurring extra cost which they then didn't want to bear.

Scratch that.

Client couldn't follow instructions despite being clearly advised, incurring extra cost which they then didn't want to bear.

Exactly the growing pattern in my area.

Explanations of what can done, how much, etc. are part of the game.

When the client wants to change the game it is up to you (the webmaster) to explain why it is going to cost THIS MUCH EXTRA or IT CAN'T WORK under your current budget.

That's been around since the dawn of commerce (50-60,000 years or more).

I'll write a shorter clearer idea.

Dealing with a worker who forget things, write it down!. Dealing with a worker who lies? shouldn't be in your company. Same rules apply to clients. From a biz perspective "there are many things that can be done" and this depends on who is saying it, experience, learned tricks, etc. But most times practical people will tell you "learn how to spot a liar and run away", the validity of such words is amazing, as it applies to businesses, relationships, life itself.

Anyone trying to change the rules of the game is telling you to avoid working with them, as it's pretty clear they will try to change the rules again. The challenge is to spot who is doing things by accident, ignorance, stubbornness, or as a business strategy to get people to do things they didn't agree (stage by stage) ohhh because there are stages, and some have different strategies for every stage (to rip off service providers).

I'm a fast learner on coding and structures, but have been a slow learner on how people can deceive others in businesses because the amount of different ways to do that is... amazingly diverse. Serving clients (being at the meetings) allowed me conversations on deals where they pretended to be ignorant on a phone call and pretend not to know some things, or "forget things", then they hang up and in front of you they celebrate the deal, and will often show off telling you how effective that is, get the client/service provider... then engage, agree, then change the deal, but do it so carefully they will be SO INVOLVED it's a mess to continue working... as it's a mess to get out of the deal.

Back in my B&M HVAC days we saw all sorts of clients. Three that come to mind:
A 30ish South Asian woman who seemed unable to ever accept list or even quoted price. It became something of a game (once I understood the ground rules); after perhaps eight years of dealing, one of us ahead, then the other, she was up $25 and thrilled; as she had spent over a hundred thousand so was I.

A car pulls up with six South Asian men who sat talking and gesturing for a good while, eventually the youngest, in his late teens, got slowly out, came in and wanted to deal on a BBQ. I refused to budge and he sadly slowly went out to car where he was obviously being berated. So I went out, leaned in open window and told the entire group it wasn’t the kid’s fault but that of one of the men who had been such a prior pita that he and his were full price no deals forever - as he had been told. Suddenly all the acrimony changed direction...

A prospect was attempting to play us against a competitor who we knew bought product at our retail price yet the client kept insisting he was comparing apples to apples. We declined to match. The competitor dropped the furnace package in prospects drive - deal was product delivered only where our quote had been requested product installed. Prospect came in and complained to us and then wanted a quote on install of competitor’s product, which we never did so declined. Prospect, unable to admit mistake, went about telling everyone we were the bad guys.

The funny thing I discovered is that those that argue the most to get the best deal are the biggest complainers once job is done. Made it easy to stop worrying about losing prospects simply on price. A lot less stress letting them mutter off to make a competitor’s life miserable.

Oh, and never ever provide professional service for free, the recipient will ever after expect free as a right and forever after be a pita. What isn’t paid for (in some amount) is rarely appreciated. Sadly.
Note: yes, there are exceptions except those are the people who actually expect to pay not get whatever for nada.

People are weird and wacky. And every now and then, as sun through clouds, unexpectedly delightful.

@Iamlost: So true, well said. Lot's of clients/customers try to use brute force on do it my way or else I will tell everyone you are the bad guys.

I am lost: The funny thing I discovered is that those that argue the most to get the best deal are the biggest complainers once job is done. Made it easy to stop worrying about losing prospects simply on price. A lot less stress letting them mutter off to make a competitor’s life miserable.

A lot of people approach businesses from an ego/I'm big standpoint, many are actually broke, they just want to appear big. Sometimes it's sickening because in these types of talk "everyone knows something you don't", but not in a good way: in a bad way, and this includes the bad clients themselves. Might sound cryptic but many clients approach the negotiations in the form of "I'm not a client, I'm a business, so we are business to business, a company", and that's ego again.

Sometimes... the more tricks a coworker or businessman knows, the more I wonder if they actually are more alike the clients they complain. There is a difference between complaining, knowing how to get around, spot people and avoid them VS knowing the tricks by experience. The last one is negative. But again as in most human relationships you know when you know, it might take you a long way to find out or a short one.

those that argue the most to get the best deal are the biggest complainers once job is done

"Those clients are a pita, but what we are here to discuss is... you (as a service provider) might be yourself one of those clients you hate so much". Ohhh such is life, this was said by a guy who talks about photography and video production on his YT channel, so right! many clients that I worked with talk about perfection but they are far from it, complain so much but they are the first rock in the shoe, I learned to say bye bye to them.

I am lost: Oh, and never ever provide professional service for free, the recipient will ever after expect free as a right and forever after be a pita. What isn’t paid for (in some amount) is rarely appreciated. Sadly.
Note: yes, there are exceptions except those are the people who actually expect to pay not get whatever for nada.

True. That's a whole thread itself, lots of clients feel free (and actually they know it's free) to ask for meetings where nothing will be spent but they gain knowledge in some way or another.

As some people I know, I grew a preference for businesses where LESS interaction with people is needed, as things this way get more efficient and pure business.

A regional consideration: not all situations are the same everywhere. There is a reason why there is no ebay, amazon, mercadolibre, etc. in my country, not to mention limited paypal support (you can pay but you can never get your funds in cash here). The way many people behave towards business (or client/customer entitlement) is heavily skewed here).

We are creating a new site, with an agency, (so I am the client this time), most of the initial content coming from our existing site. Communication has been important and is ongoing. Something I feel I should have insisted on at the start though is a single specification document which could be reissued to version 2 - 3 - 4 etc as new items were specified and agreed.

Well sadly I fell on a trap by someone I know. We 'were' friends and worked at the same company years ago, it's not the first time I develop a website with this guy (graphic designer and former -dreamweaver webmaster-

I took all my precautions and learned lessons from previous years (despite being a friend). Guy approaches me and explains the project, I said I would listen to see if I'm interested. After the initial conversation I explained the kind of projects I don't take, and what sort of things are TO ME a red flag that would push me to even walk away from projects because it's obvious to me the clients are trying to play games and get more than what they are paying. He not only listened, also agreed. Then we proceeded.

Description of the work: easy, I can do it in 3 stages, 4 days each one max.
Design: closed, already approved Photoshop. -no changes allowed-
Data structure: something I can build in a day or less -closed, no changes allowed-
Price: a joke, I wanted to help, this guy is in trouble, without a job, etc.
What's not allowed?: and I proceeded to explain in detail no flying monkeys or tricks, etc.

Reality? now?
- Long work, all the conditions changed.
- Design with changes one after another.
- Data structure: a mess... they didn't show the real documents (this includes my "friend").
- Price: an insult, they want an Amazon-cousin for pennies.
- What's not allowed?: check on all the checklist points of "don't".

It's been almost a month and they are delaying everything, and most importantly: THEY WANT FLYING MONKEYS. The thing I told them causes me to WALK away from projects... they want it, and they say "hey, we talked about it". Yes we talked about it, they said "what about monkeys?" and I said "no hell no, no way I would ever work something around that". [u]But they remember talking about it and me agreeing[/u].

How about that? things started making sense when my friend (if I could call him that...) started talking about desperate measures about work and money because COVID was causing a lot of trouble on his side in finances, he has no job and now couldn't go to places to do small work (installations of... stuff) and then describes clients being upset because things are falling down (bad installation). I knew right there this digital project would be a terrible mess too. The funny thing is I even told him I don't work with people in desperate situations because they bring the house down... And it didn't matter the clear list of -if you EVEN attempt to do this or that... I'm walking away-