You can build your own themes with your own artwork/images for Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal, etc. (even html) with artisteer which is a software program for Windows or MAC (but still "beta" for MAC) and not a hosted solution. I have used it and been pleased with it, though it is not a cheap solution and maybe not the answer unless you have more than one site you are maintaining. It is pretty much drag and drop with multiple menus for each part of the theme you're creating.

I hear you Nick. It's why I went with a CMS. I chose WordPress and while there is still some messing around with code, my effort has been reduced by at 80% which is glorious.

Thanks guys.

Yeh. I've been tinkering with Optimizepress Lorax, which seems to take a lot of the pain out of designing landing pages..

The problem you have with PHP-based CMS in general is the code is mixed with the layout.

I wasn't accustomed to this code/layout hodge-podge until I ended up using PHP and something needs to be done as this is utter madness as replacing a layout should be as simple as dropping in a couple of new HTML files and not mucking with actual code. Utter madness.

Anyway, I would start with a Twitter Bootstrap Wordpress theme if it were mine to make sure your site works across all platforms and work from there which is what I'm currently doing. WordMess, whatever CMS, it doesn't matter until you find something cleanly separating code from layout, it's a disaster.

I've been working on the problem to see if I can get PHP to do what I did in my previous code environment and it looks promising if I can work through some of the wacky things the PHP DOM objects do with text concatenation which were quite unexpected and maddening.

PHP - everything you need but nothing you really want.

BTW, welcome back Nick! Long time no see.

Nick_W,

I definitely appreciate your position. I also started using Drupal about 10 years ago and Wordpress about the same time with the idea of avoiding continually writing code. And while it saves a lot of time on a new site, I do notice that the DB-driven site I built from scratch in about 2003 is running on the exact same code base with the last bug fix having been rolled out over 6 years ago.

You might have a peruse here, though it hasn't been updated in a while.

[webmasterworld.com...]

[webmasterworld.com...]

The problem you have with PHP-based CMS in general is the code is mixed with the layout

Many people think Drupal 8 is a make or break release, because it attempts to fix a lot of this. And even within the community, there's a sense that this could be an OS X type of advance or a Win Vista type of advance.

But a few things are oriented toward relieving the pain.

1. Separation of code/presentation layers with Twig. This is mostly seen as a security issue (major problem with PHP CMS - themers have access to full PHP and can delete your DB). [twig.sensiolabs.org...]

2. Inline editing. If you have the privileges, you will make content edits from the page itself. True WYSIWG.... unless of course it's a big fail.

3. "Not built here" technology. There has been a general recognition that building components from scratch, which is the Drupal tradition, is a mistake. This first started in small bits perhaps 5 years ago with rolling in JQuery, but with D8, the database layer and many other major components will use existing and well-known PHP frameworks (Symfony for the most part).

4. Config export. Another huge problem with Wordpress, Drupal, Joomla etc is that they mix content and configuration in the database. This makes pushing feature updates from dev to production difficult and often risky. With Drupal 8, almost all config can be saved to code. Drupal has been way ahead on this already with Features and CTools exports, but because config in Drupal is so complex, it still ends up with 10x more config in the database than Wordpress. This should reverse that situation.

As I say, D8 is still in alpha. I've installed it and played and generally like it. But many people think that this release will either catapult Drupal to the fore putting it leaps and bounds ahead of other PHP CMS, or it will consign it to the dustbin as a bloated, unusable and unfriendly CMS.... check back here in about year for details.

Hi Bill! Good to see you :)

Ergophobe that's quite a lot of info. Thanks! Im still on D6. After the upgrade from D5 I swore I was not going to upgrade for at least a year or more after D7 came out. Drupal has a habit of releasing when a lot of the big modules (like Ubercart/Commerce in D7 for example) are still in 7x-alpha-this or 7x-rc-that and it just gives me such a sinking feeling to see the sheer volume of bug reports in the queue and developer notices on the module pages calling for testers etc...

Arrrgh!

For right now as Im only running a couple of very small sites Im going to just start again with Wordpress/Optimizepress (whose version 2.0 looks pretty neat btw) but will definitely look at D8 when it comes out.

Oh, and that's the other thing about Drupal. A serious lack of really good premium themes... I can't design to save my life!

Drupal has a habit of releasing when a lot of the big modules (like Ubercart/Commerce in D7 for example) are still in 7x-alpha-this

Well, module developers can't update their modules until core has a stable release. That said, the D6 release was widely considered a debacle in this respect and it really wasn't bad for D7.

There are two things to keep in mind.

1. Drupal is evolving from single-purpose modules to toolkit/building-block modules. So there are fewer modules that you need to get things done, but without them, you can't do anything at all. But it does mean you get to a funcational state much faster than in the D5/D6 days.

2. CCK and Views and a few other crucial modules are now part of core. So there's no wait for that. This is key not only because those modules are so important, but they are also foundational. So you had this thing before where you couldn't start in updating Views until you had a stable core release, and you couldn't update Views Bulk Ops until Views had a stable release, and you couldn't update Ubercart until you had a VBO update, and you couldn't update Ubercart Discounts module until.... you get the idea.

>>serious lack of really good premium themes

Drupal has always lagged Joomla and Wordpress in that respect. It is becoming a more design-oriented community and there are more decent themes, but it seems like the really nice Drupal sites are mostly custom.