What is the legal situation here, as people do seem to be trading.

I know in the US selling such goods is illegal, more than once I've seen in the newspaper where people have had their entire inventories confiscated.

I discover that there is even quality issues with fakes lol,

Undoubtedly, if you take the black market for DVD's as an example quality ranges from ones that have been sourced from handheld cams with peoples heads and screaming children. On the other end of the scale you have copies that have been professionally pressed complete with jacket art that you would never be able to tell from the original. Iin some cases even reauthored to include more material than the original real version which ironically would makle it a better version.

There's other more important issues though, sunglasses for example. Major brands are rated as safety glasses and many people use them in situations where they are needed. If the fake doesn't meet the requirements that it should they could possibly be putting someone at risk.

I don't really want to discuss the ethics of selling these products, as that's just a good/bad/indifferent subject...

I am not sure I understand what you mean by this? Ethics don't come into it.

This is not an ethical issue, it's a legal issue. It is clearly against the law to do what you suggest.

I agree there is a legal issue, of course, my point is the market exists and I'm sure there is a fairly safe way of trading in it without touching the goods.

So we are left with the ethical issue, should you really perpetuate illegal practice V's high value brands are a complete rip off, paying for the brand in most cases, can something be criminal even if it is legal etc .. again I think that is another thread with an inevitable outcome..

Maybe I do fall in to the , " I don't really care" for the most part camp... and most probably would avoid getting involved with that sort of development just because it is probably not worth the hassle.

But given my train of thought, is it possible to deal with it in a good business sense, even although it may be a bad business to get involved with..

In simple terms the demand is there, the cash is there, the oppertunity is there, if you were to go there is there a better way of doing it..

I'm sure there is a fairly safe way of trading in it without touching the goods.

Famous last words of a lot of convicts.. lol . If you're profiting from an illegal activity and are aware the activity is illegal you can be prosecuted.

So we are left with the ethical issue, should you really perpetuate illegal practice V's high value brands are a complete rip off, paying for the brand in most cases, can something be criminal even if it is legal etc ..

Like it or not it's their brand and to use someones trademark for your own gain is stealing. As far as being a rip-off I think that's relative to which products you are speaking of, a lot of clothing brands would certainly fall into that category but other items wouldn't. Besides the sunglasses example I gave above tools come to mind as something where the brand is going to be worth every penny. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy brand name so if you think it's a rip-off don't buy it.

and most probably would avoid getting involved with that sort of development just because it is probably not worth the hassle.

...or don't want to go to jail.

*note to clarify my first response above, even engaging in an illegal activity when you are not aware it's illegal can result in prosecution.

There are more than a few established merchants who deal in 'inspired by' or 'in the style of' type products. But they don't purport to be replicas or 'counterfeit' type items and are 100% legal AFAIK.

Yip I've seen those sites too ...

How do they get away with it..?

I understand illegal is illegal in the eyes of the law, then so is not paying all the tax your due to pay and people do that, I guess people have different levels of conduct, and decide on what level of chance they are prepared to take, i'm not going to judge anyone on the decision they make, well at least in these terms..

I have bought these things, I first really came across it in turkey about 20 years ago, and it seemed like a laugh to buy everyone Gucci watches .. bought the occasional video in the past, and some clothing, I don't do it now, not because I've suddenly developed a conscience more to do with the fact that they tend to be sh*t ..

so to set up a site, could it be hosted in a country not so strict, could it simply be links to affiliate sites who actually deal with the product..

People know what they are buying , it's not as if you are fooling the customer, but I must admit you are putting me off the idea lol ..

Revenue stream V's a knock on the door ... haha!

[edited by: Lobo at 3:30 pm (utc) on June 2, 2007]

Yip I've seen those sites too ...
How do they get away with it..?

If you mean the sites that Simey's talking about, they don't have to "get away with it" because what they're doing is legal. I can't remember ever buying clothes that carried a prohibition of reverse engineering. If, as you say, the fake brand names don't fool anyone, why bother with them? Just sell the lookalikes as lookalikes - legally - to "fill the niche".

IANAL - But I did serve on a jury that convicted a man of theft by reception of stolen goods for something not too dissimilar to what you're talking about. The operational term is "ORP" - If an ordinary, reasonable, and prudent person might suspect that a transaction is illegal, then it's illegal. So even if you can imagine saying, "Honestly, your honor, it never crossed my mind that trafficking in $5 Gucci watches might be illegal," you're still not off the hook.

Weighing the possible gain against the risk is something every criminal has to think about (every successful criminal, anyway). But I think there's a reason that the websites selling look-alikes tend to be legal, while the spam emails tend to be illegal: it's a lot easier to track down the website owner than the email sender.

There are more than a few established merchants who deal in 'inspired by' or 'in the style of' type products. But they don't purport to be replicas or 'counterfeit' type items and are 100% legal AFAIK.

Good point and I'd imagine as long as no patent infringements are involved you would be in the clear but I'm not a lawyer so really have no idea. Certainly a grey area because in sense you would be just be comparing your product to another, you're not branding it as the product.

I don't see how you can ethically perform an illegal act. You do realize that selling fake goods is a criminal offense, not just a civil one. You can go to jail for that.

[edited by: trillianjedi at 7:44 pm (utc) on June 7, 2007]
[edit reason] Messed up my splits and splices... just fixing [/edit]

I'm sure there is a fairly safe way of trading in it without touching the goods.

There is. Unfortunately eBay has pretty-much a monopoly on the business model.

Just read an extensive article on fake Bluetooth headsets bought on eBay. They didn't quote a percentage, but it seems an astonshing number of them sold on eBay are fakes.

They purchased a number of popular Bluetooth headsets on eBay at lowball prices, and purchased the same headsets directly from the manufacturer or from reputable retailers. They were able to detect the differences in the products and showed photos of the differences.

I have to assume that this is a widespread practice on eBay that extends to many other products besides Bluetooth headsets.

The manufactures generally were pretty blaise about it. The one thing that they are fairly aggressive about trying to stamp-out (but not doing very well) is fake batteries. Presumably, because the company might be sued for damages caused by fake batteries that they didn't make, or that it might give them a bad reputation, because consumers might not be aware that they are fakes.

----
Anyway, the biggest problem for consumers isn't finding fakes but finding the genuine article... A number of comments on the article reported instances of consumers purchasing what turned out to be fakes from major retailers.

Go to any flea market, and you can find plenty of fakes. Or eBay.

Why not turn this inside out, and start a site on how to spot fakes and make sure you are buying the genuine article?

Thats a good post jtara ... I guess it was a little gold fever on my part, seeing these sites and knowing I could do better.. seeing the cash stream and wondering if I could divert that..

<snip>

I wonder what the stats are on the quessed revenue these sites and that business generates?

[edited by: trillianjedi at 7:27 pm (utc) on June 7, 2007]
[edit reason] Let's not get personal here... [/edit]

I know it's illegal.. in this country and probably their country, doesn't take a genius, if I expanded on that it was wondering if these business host else where , where it is acceptable or at least doable...

<snip>

[edited by: trillianjedi at 7:30 pm (utc) on June 7, 2007]
[edit reason] See above, let's keep it tidy now... [/edit]

these business host else where , where it is acceptable or at least doable...

You mean like these guys :)

[cnn.com...]

Legal or not legal I have heard that some people are making a lot of cash out of this. Whether they'll get to keep it is a different story.

As soon as you are setting up a site using a trademark which you have not been authorizes to use, the trademark owner can and usually will come after you. Even if you only write - looks like "brandname" you have infringed the trademark and they can send you a cease and desist letter. And if you do not comply contact your hosting company to take down your site, file a DMCA complaint with Google and get your site removed and so on. Besides, designs for watches and clothes and the like are usually either protected as "utility models" or patented. So even if you do not mention the brand at all it is still illegal.

Why do you think those businesses change domain names so quickly and are usually advertised with Spam Emails only.

So if you are up to becoming the next Robert Soloway go ahead.

[webmasterworld.com...]
[forbes.com...]

Of course there is money to be made in this business - but it is simply illegal to participate in it. Of course you can operate your servers in Russia or China but chances are if you do not move your residence permanently there and stay there you will be traced and arrested.

Guys, let's not do judgmental and personal here, it's not necessary.

If you can't say something objective, say nothing.

Thanks.

Thanks jecasc, good post and blindly obvious when you put it that way ...

I guess I just wondered how the hell these guys get away with it and with the amount of this kind of spam and time and effort put in to promoting it, it seems like it must be working on some level...

[edited by: Lobo at 2:13 am (utc) on June 8, 2007]

I guess I just wondered how the hell these guys get away with it

They get away with it for the same reason the shady guy selling the same stuff out of van in the local shopping mall, at swap meets, on the street in some neighborhoods, etc. - safety in numbers, keep moving around, generally considered a low-impact white-collar crime, lack of enforcement resources, etc.

eBay is probably the direct cause of a global surge in counterfeit goods, since they provide an efficient outlet and don't ask many questions. I am convinced that, without eBay, there wouldn't be counterfeits of all of the popular brands of bluetooth headsets. I imagine this is the case with MOST popular premium-priced goods.

I'm not sure why anybody would go to the bother of setting-up a website which they will have to move around frequently, rely on spam for advertising, etc.

Heck, just buy some fake stuff from China and put it on eBay like everybody else! It's the lazy man's way to ill-gotten riches!

You should follow the "money trail" and see where it leads. You will be shocked.

A lot of those illegal activities fund terrorist and extremist groups in the Middle East...

Your on a hiding to nothing, dont do it.