It uses the same rendering engine (Presto); it's a newer version however: 2.5 versus 2.2 in Opera 10.0/10.1.

I posted a lot of details in an earlier thread...
[webmasterworld.com...]

Opera has decided to finish the Windows version before finishing 10.5 on other platforms however they mentioned that this was an exception rather then a rule.

It's pretty solid though I would have also liked to see CSS3 multi-column support, maybe in 11. Still it's a massive update to Opera. :)

- John

I've seen a lot of writings that they are getting the Windows version out the door sooner than everything else due to the Browser Ballot compromise with the EU, which takes effect in March.

For those not familiar with the EU Browser Ballot compromise, here is a CNET article on it: [news.cnet.com...]

After reading this you will understand why Opera wants to get v10.5 out the door on Windows before other OSes.

It seems they failed with regards to the "fastest JavaScript engine ever":
[webmasterworld.com...]

But at least it's an improvement over previous versions.

lol Fotiman - those tests were by Google and WebKit and reported by Mozilla fan site cnet. Ya think they are a bit biased? lol

Here - a slower version of the Opera 10.5 Alpha that smoked FF and IE for lunch from an independent 3rd party:
[betanews.com...]

But with a score of 24.43 in our latest Windows 7 tests, the Opera 10.5 pre-alpha renders, crunches, and expedites content 17.7 times faster than IE8. We expect that number to decline a bit as Opera Software fixes this browser to at least "alpha" quality. Yet with a two-point gap over Chrome 5, Opera can actually afford to take it down a notch -- something we never thought we'd be saying just four months ago.

[lifehacker.com...]

What does Opera 10.5 have to offer? If a quick test is any indication, faster JavaScript speed than any browser out there.

In my real world tests, there is simply no question that Opera does - and always has - blown the doors off IE and Firefox in real world surfing. Chrome - I don't know about - as it is so far behind in features, I don't think it is a serious or fair comparison to use it.

All-in-all, it is clearly Opera's best effort to date.

> 10.5

I have been using the various Alphas since before christmas and it is quite a bit better in most regards.

However, I don't care for the new page search routine - horrible beyond description. It pretty much ends the ability to search the page. It changes the whole page color and shifts it downward a row. This is clearly a weekend hack feature.

They also switched away from the classic MDI windows driven windows to modual dialog boxes. You lose minimize and close buttons from windows. There are workarounds, but it requires you to adjust to the browser instead of the browser to the person.

Either way, I am still trying to use Firefox as much as I can tolerate. FF is ok at rendering speed, but the rest of the user interface is so slow it is really annoying. I mostly do alot of trying to close windows because they appear broken they are so slow. FF also doesn't have alot of the nice features of Opera (like shift-click-form buttons). Probably my biggest beef with FF is that it takes days to install all the necc goodies we really want. While Opera can be copied from machine to machine in a few meg, FF has to be reinstalled on each machine and then each addon has to be found. ugh. So, it too requires you to adapt (slow down) to use it.

Note: no beta available yet for MacOSX

Note: no beta available yet for MacOSX

As discussed above, Opera is focusing entirely on getting v10.5 rolled out first for Windows due to the EU Browser Ballot compromise. As such I wouldn't expect betas for other OSes for a while.

I have always liked Opera. I'm a couple of versions behind, but it still smokes IE and I prefere it to the newer versions of FF.

Any issues running this beta along-side a previous stable?

Mack.

I gave up on IE a long time. My pages would just freeze for 30 seconds at a time on all my 3 computers so it's the browser. I use firefox with a few mods like drag & drop etc.

My FF is zippy all the time... then again I rarely have more than two tabs open at any one time... and I tend to restart the browser several times a day...

However, did look at the new Opera. Nice. Not nice enough to switch, but very nice!

100 out of 100 on the Acid Test and 1 out of 100 on the "in use" test. Why isn't there the same enthusiasm about Opera as there is for Firefox? Admittedly, I don't know much about Opera, other than that lack of people that visit my sites with it.

>Why isn't there the same enthusiasm about Opera as there is for Firefox?

Because Opera is developed by a group of Tone Deaf Norwegians who are marketing morons. That is harsh to say, but it is the absolute truth. They clearly have had a superior product at many stages of the game, but have completely and utterly failed at marketing it. Their biggest problem is that they have never listened to their users except when they needed feature feedback. They hold their users in a contemptuous state. They feel they are something they have had to tolerate instead of engaging.

It will be interesting to see if the new ceo has the guts to take the company in a new direction, take off the blinders, remove the ear plugs, and have the insight to engage it's user base in a meaningful conversation.

Or find another revenue stream besides getting the EU to hold MS' toes to the fire.

I don't like IE, hence my FF use, but I don't like Opera for their politics. Which I suppose was a "meaningful conversation".

Edit: Sorry, was replying to the "marketing" comment. There are better ways to market a product than an EU competition complaint.

> another revenue

Well, remember they have been big in mobile in europe. They also are the default browser on the WII (which is an awesome browser. If you ever get the chance to use the browser in the WII - try it)

Their mobile browser was great on my Windows mobile device. It opened up a much larger percentage of the web to that phone. I didn't mind paying for it, because it was worth ever penny.

Users now aren't willing to pay for a PC browser, there are just to many that are free. It wasnt so long ago that Opera was payware, with an ad suported free version. I think those days may be part of the reason for the slow uptake now. There may be a lot of users out there who still think they will need to either pay for it, or put up with adverts.

Regarding FF, what exactly have they done from a marketing point of view apart from their dealings with Google, and that was very much a two-way street.

I still think Opera offrs a beter browser then FF and IE, but Like Brett said, they just don't know how to push it.

Mack.

However, I don't care for the new page search routine - horrible beyond description. It pretty much ends the ability to search the page. It changes the whole page color and shifts it downward a row. This is clearly a weekend hack feature.

You can turn it off the colour change in opera:config in set 'Dim Search Opacity' to 0 and then Save.

I just installed it - almost uninstalled it again as no menu bar - but then I found it. Still, they can't bring themselves to use ctrl-click to open a link in a new tab so I won't be using it unless forced to do so by bugs in other browsers!

First impression is it's quick, but it's ugly and the menu-bar font doesn't display properly. It would look better if the non-client area (title-bar and edges) were customised to match the toolbar area. If they'd implement ctrl-click for links I'd use Opera - I still don't understand why they don't - completely bonkers! How do they expect to attract Firefox users without this most fundamental of features? Clearly, the development team lives in isolation.

(I know about shift-click in Opera)

Kaled.

If they'd implement ctrl-click for links I'd use Opera

_{edit: sorry I missed the fine print}

Its Ctrl+Shift+Click to open links in background tab or just Shift+Click to open links in a foreground tab.

This works for most things in opera for example if you go to google.com and do a search you can Ctrl+Shift+Click or Ctrl+Shift+Enter it will open a search in a background tab same goes when submitting forms.

It will be interesting to see if the new ceo has the guts to take the company in a new direction, take off the blinders, remove the ear plugs, and have the insight to engage it's user base in a meaningful conversation.

Well said, Brett. They *are* marketing morons.

@Brett_Tabke: That's a bit harsh, saying we don't care about our users. I registered on this site just because we care. I'm not "Tone Deaf" either. I'm quite frankly a bit stunned that you can say we don't listen to our users considering we have a high profile Desktop Team blog with regular snapshots and blog posts.


- Petter, Senior Desktop developer, Opera Software ASA

How do they expect to attract Firefox users without this most fundamental of features?

They aren't looking to attract people by copying feature-sets of other browsers. The reality is that just about every major feature (other than extensions) introduced by Firefox, Chrome, Safari, etc. has been copied from Opera. It's a bit outdated now, but do a search for the "Opera 30 day challenge", and give it a shot.

I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it: Opera doesn't have a bad browser (in fact it's probably the best!), just a very bad Marketing team.

Mitchman,

Since Opera has such a small user base, logically, you should be working to attract new users (from other browsers) therefore you should...

• Use the most familiar-looking user interface that you can - hiding the menu-bar by default is therefore nuts.
  
• Include common extensions, such as Flashblock, by default.
  
• Make it easier to find, install, enable and disable such extensions. To install flashblock, I had to
  1) Find the right file with Google.
  2) Find Preferences\Advanced\Content\JavascriptOptions to choose a location to store user-javascript.
  3) Save the file to this directory and restart Opera.
  Compare that with Firefox - it's pitiful.
  
  Also, I couldn't figure out how to install a UK-English dictionary. Considering that a US-English dictionary is installed by default, I found it odd that I couldn't change the language easily. Surely, this should adjustable under the Preferences.
  

Returning to apearance...

• The tab-bar and navigation bars are too high and therefore waste space.
  
• The highlighting of navigation buttons (when the mouse is over them) is too subtle. Also, these icons should be colorful.
  
• The highlighting of tabs is ugly and far too bold.
  
• The search bar is too high and wastes space. Also, placing it at the top rather than the bottom is annoying because is creates unnecessary screen movement. Also, it needs options for highlight all and whole words only.
  All popup bars should be placed at the bottom. If important, they can be subtly flashed to attract user attention.
  
• The Closed-tabs icon should be on the left of the tabs bar with other navigation tools.
  
• You should maybe look again at javascript message boxes - greying out the window is done too strongly in my opinion. However, it's a good idea as is giving the option to stop running javascript on the page.
  

Incidentally, providing the option of installing Opera on a portable drive would a good idea and should be straightforward.

Kaled.

> colour change

And how do you stop the page shifting down and losing your place? Or how do you change the highlight that is so overpowering in color and shape, that it obscures text next to it? (rhetorical question - because you can't).

This is yet another example of Opera doing whatever it wants regardless of what it's users may want. The find routine was changed because they decided to switch to nonmodal dialog boxes. Apparently this has to do with ajax or js generated boxes (since you now have no control over many of those boxes.) That lead them to do away with the old find style... eg: they didn't care how it impacted users - they did it anyway. This is but the ten thousandth time something like that has happen. They simply don't care about their users on windows. They never listen to them and do whatever they want, when they want it.

>I'm quite frankly a bit stunned that you can say we don't listen to our users

@Mitchman; First, welcome to the forums. Thanks for stopping in. I know it is not all that easy to do and we appreciate you taking the time.

Maybe we should start documenting the times Opera Software has failed to listen to it's users or engage in conversation with them. It would be a fairly mundane exercise. So lets start here:

The famous Cache File Extension switch. Here is one thread of numerous discussions in forums and on Usenet about it: [my.opera.com...]

Obviously the Opera user base (that use the cache regularly), absolutely hated that switch. There is no middle ground here - users that use the cache regularly - hate it. They hated it so much, people went and wrote software to fix it! ( [nirsoft.net...] ) Opera software, was totally tone deaf to the communities needs and requests. OS decided they knew how their browser should be used better than the users did.

I can appreciate security issues better than most users as I am sensitive to it, but no one from OS ever came into any of those threads and explained it, or offered a workable full time solution. Hundreds of users that used that feature were ignored. Opera was tone deaf to those users and did what they wanted regardless. Once again, Opera users have little to no voice at OS.

What happened when we challenge OS on this policy?

Moderator note: This post has been removed for violating our Terms of Service.
btabke: that is off topic, and will not be answered unless you make a new thread about it...

I did make a new thread about it - and it was nuked. (oh the irony...)

> high profile Desktop Team blog with regular snapshots and blog posts.

Yes, you guys publish stuff on there regularly - it is a one way ticket. Opera software does not engage in conversation with it's user base off it's blog - it preaches too it. It listens for PR and quality control purposes only. The desktop blog is beta testing and the users are free product testers. By the time a release hits the blog, all the interesting decisions have already been made and you guys are well into the fix-it-and-forget-it stage of the release.

The best thing that could happen is if the snapshots and blog posts were nuked and actual discussions with users were to take place. As it is now, only the pr people are allowed to discuss things with the users in the forums.

hiding the menu-bar by default is therefore nuts.

I'm not so sure. If the browser is aimed at average joe user will they really need that menu? Even IE8 hides the menu by default, you need to press alt in order to see it.

I will agree though, that the UI is different to the rest of the mainstream browsers, is that a bad thing? I'm not sure. It does take a little bit of time to get used to.

Its also worth pointing out that this is "Beta" what we see now may well change/improve before the final release.

Mitchman, thank you very much for stopping by!

Mack.

I will agree though, that the UI is different to the rest of the mainstream browsers, is that a bad thing? I'm not sure. It does take a little bit of time to get used to.

Yes it is a bad thing if you are trying to attract new users. As an absolute minimum, Opera need to provide the features people are used to in a package they can readily access without having to go hunting for ways to customise it. For instance, Firefox provides a drop-down history button by default and understands right-clicks on the forward and back buttons but Opera does neither. Sure, you can customise the toolbar but it's the default setup that counts when you are trying to attract new users, most whom won't look for customisations if they don't see the features they are used to in the default setup of other browsers.

Also, I think it bears repeating Ctrl-click (to open links in a new tab) is an absolute essential to attract Firefox users. Currently, a Ctrl-click on a link simply behaves like a regular click so this feature could be added in five minutes without breaking anything (but may require a disable option for user-javascript compatibilty).

Also, the option to not display the tab-bar at all would be nice if there is only one tab open. I have always used this option in Firefox. Firefox has many faults, but I would not list appearance as one of them. Opera could do a lot worse than copy the appearance Firefox fairly closely - in fact, they have done a lot worse!

On my toolbar I have Closed Tabs, drop-Back, drop-Forward, Reload and Home. Aesthetically, it would be nice if the Closed Tabs button was the same size as the others too!

Kaled.

@mitchman/petter

It's not unusual for people on the inside of a company to be totally blind to what's perfectly obvious to people on the outside.
I don't mean to speak for him but I think Brett is being harsh because he's a long-time user and he cares.
So do I.
There's always been *something* holding Opera back.

Lately, because of my interest in web typography and @font-face font linking, I have been mercilessly but caringly critical on my blog about Opera's continued botching of @font-face support which, with 10.5 Beta, has unfortunately regressed yet again. As a little bit of fun, I am offering a $100 gift card for Andreas Bovens if the developers get it right on the next release. If not, the developers get a set of steak knives as a consolation prize.

I know it sounds moronically simple, but as a name for a product - especially a desktop browser - "Opera" just plain sucks. It has held you back and will continue to hold you back.
I know it's emotionally difficult (and expensive) to move to another name but perhaps a company-wide name change is not necessary.
Just like Microsoft uses it's company name as a prefix for everything it offers - Microsoft Word, Microsoft this, Microsoft that - perhaps you could re-launch as the Opera "New Chosen Name" browser. I know it's corny, but you could ask the web development community to suggest names. People love that kind of stuff, even web geeks.
Get a fresh start. Keep a link with the past, but move beyond it.
That's the best advice I can give you - FWIW.

And good luck.
- "Readable" Richard Fink aka poppyrich

@Brett

Chrome - I don't know about - as it is so far behind in features, I don't think it is a serious or fair comparison to use it.

Behind in features? Like what? I use it regularly for all of my web browsing needs and I've never encountered a time when it lacked a feature. I think it's perfectly fair comparison to use.

Hey Guys - I was directed to this thread by a friend who knew i would be interested being I am the online marketing manager for Opera.

Reading this I agree with most of what is said (especially the new "find on page" – its pretty annoying). Also agree we can do a pretty poor job of marketing. That said we are only a few guys here and a huge chunk of our time is spent getting internal web properties up to date and ready for new releases and doesn't leave time for much external marketing. And even less time to concept ideas. But if you have any thoughts on what we should be doing from a marketing point of view please do let me know. I am truly interested to get the outsiders opinion. Oh and did I mention we have next to no budget...which might constrain some ideas...

But when i read this thread the one thing i felt was unfair is saying Opera doesn't listen as i have never worked in a company that is so receptive to the individual voices of the community - at least in my experience. So many other companies are just about demographics and sample groups. And while we might not hear everyone I know the developers are pretty receptive.

Anyway - I'll look forward to hearing any feedback.

Gustomaximus,

Having won the battle to make Opera selectable when Windows is installed, the most important thing is to not blow it. If you plan to have 10.5 ready then you don't have time to make any big changes but...

In the default setup
1) Use the drop-history versions of the forward and back buttons.
2) Place the closed-tabs button with the forward and back buttons.
3) Include the menu bar. If users don't want it, they can hide it. Also ensure that the font is displayed correctly (it isn't on my computer running XP).

Also,
1) Ensure that Ctrl-click on a link opens the link in a new tab.
2) If easy, provide the option to hide the tab-bar when only one page is open.
3) Adjust the skin for the tab-bar.
4) Reduce the height of the tab bar and navigation bar - they look ugly.
5) If easy, move popup bars such as the search bar to the bottom (and reduce its height).
6) Ensure that it's easy to change dictionary - I couldn't figure out how to switch to UK English (but maybe I missed something obvious).

If you have time,
Add a manager for user-javascript extensions and offer to install one or two common ones such as flashblock automatically.

When going after new users, you must provide all the features that they are used to in a package that looks and feels familiar. If you can't bring yourselves to do that, you may as well give up and go home. Clearly, this message has not been delivered to the development team so I suggest that you make sure it is delivered, understood and followed.

Kaled.