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What's happening to desktop Linux?

Question: is Wine dead? no longer under active development?

         

explorador

5:49 pm on Oct 2, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Hi everyone, this is not a rant, it's a set of legit questions and honestly... a bit of comedy (unplanned). There is some old similar thread where we discussed why Linux is not our main OS, I used some dark humor there, later I wondered if I made it obvious or I just confused people, so now I'm making it clear from start, Linux as it is... serves well for comedy. Or not?

Recently got a 2nd hand 27" iMac, such a great machine and still powerful. Being obsolete in terms of MacOS, I wanted to run Linux on it. Along the way tried diff versions of Ubuntu and also Mint, but also came across past issues.

Let me explain a bit:
  • Years in the past used Xubuntu as my daily driver OS on my dev laptop, all good, but then I just couldn't stay because I needed to run specific MS and Adobe software. At first used Wine and it was all great, but then new versions of specific applications refused to run, or just crashed. Using a virtual machine wasn't a great idea back then due to resources (it is now).
  • After years using Windows, later tried to come back to Linux, but found several difficulties... and trying to solve those only proved what some people say around the web: Linux is great... as long as you don't value your time, because you will be wasting lots of it, YES, during that time I tried diff distros, like Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Mint, PepperMint, etc, and something was always missing, if something worked on ]A, it wouldn't work on B, and if it worked on C, then something new and different will refuse to work on C.


Now let's get back to the intro and the iMac. I thought Linux got better over the years, so I wanted to give it a try. What a found was as frustrating as funny:
  • After Linux made fun of Windows updates... and needing to restart after certain "updates", turns out now you face automatic updates, you won't be asked.
  • Some updates will require a restart.
  • From time to time your machine will refuse to turn off or restart, because some "unattended updates" are in progress.
  • Somehow, randomly... a duplicated network icon would appear.
  • Sometimes, randomly, shutting down will push you into a logout-login cycle
  • Sometimes the installer will warn you about security issues, and would appear not flagged as an application.
  • Many times during installation (next, next, next) the going back option would make all the buttons go gray and disable. Why allow going back if it will get you stuck?
  • I absolutely hate the installation process about language support, only to end up with an installation complaining that language support is incomplete.
  • Sometimes the installer would just freeze the computer.
  • Ok, I'm not a newbie, but seriously... for newbies... the installer sucks, the install and boot loader options are amazingly confusing.
  • Would you believe me... at times saying "don't connect and don't download stuff" while installing has no effect? and the installer would just do that actually?


Just like on the past thread I was pointing out to... how these and other errors can be found on the web with lots of complaints, and others would just say "oh, you are doing it wrong", and will suggest to just use shutdown on the terminal instead of using the menu, or use some obscure terminal command to "fix it", only to find (along the same forums) people reporting errors while trying those commands, or reporting "not found". Then pages ahead of the complaints you find people explaining A is a but, same as B, C, D... and you can find the long pages with lots of people complaining here and there.

Yeah, someone will say "are you sure your mac works?", well, I tried multiple installs on my daily driver computer, on different VM machines, and the iMac itself, only to find the same or new errors, yes I also tried diff installers, isos, etc. It was frustrating until it became funny.

About Wine... yes, what's the point of moving to Linux if you will still try to use Windows software? well... sometimes you just have to, because Linux Desktop shouldn't be just a boot to browse the internet machine. Anyway I'm really curious about this. Wine doesn't look good! I remember (as said above) years where Wine worked with a lot of the software I used, but now? even installing can show errors at times, and you end up caught installing this and this because somehow your installation lacks this and that. I'm very surprised to find the Wine DB with very old software, mostly reported as "garbage" state, some stuff it's as old as 2017, 2019, etc. And searching the web pointed me to pages where people explain everything they tried until giving up.

If you look this up you might agree with me: Wine sounds quite abandoned, despite being reported at the Wiki pages as under development.

After a lot of work I finally managed to have Windows 10, Windows 8.1 and Linux on this iMac, it wasn't easy. And I saved you some details here. I remember when Linux news (for desktop I mean) featured celebrations around new progress, but those days seem long gone.

What do you think?

tangor

11:02 pm on Oct 2, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Everything bloats, given enough time and players. There's something to be said for if it ain't broke don't fix it. Then again, one CAN'T remain in the past as some of the new stuff is quite intriguing!

Query: did you wipe/format the drive(s) before each install? I had a heck of a time with one machine which had a "hidden folder" that kept "fixing things" unrelated to its original function!

If you can't eventually laugh at something it will simply make you grumpy. Good to know you can still laugh!

graeme_p

8:27 am on Oct 3, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



All your complaints are specific to a particular Linux distro, and you do not even say what distro you are using. The only exception is that some updates require a restart which is normal (unless you have a setup designed for high availability servers) and no one I know of claimed otherwise. I do not understand "the installer will warn you about security issues, and would appear not flagged as an application" - what does that mean?

The main interest in wine these days seems to be in Valve's Proton gaming focused fork. For other things the usual advice is to run Windows in a VM.

sometimes you just have to, because Linux Desktop shouldn't be just a boot to browse the internet machine


My main work machines have been Linux for the last 20 years and I have never used Wine. I am not a graphic designer so am not sufficiently highly trained to find it hard to switch software in Adobe's area (even if I had ever used it!) and there is nothing MS specific I need. I have had fewer problems with Linux than I did with Windows or that Windows users seem to have.

I have also never had serious problems with the installers apart from some refusing to work from multi-boot media.

Yeah, someone will say "are you sure your mac works?"


Linux does not support all hardware. Maybe people mean that your particular Mac will not work will Linux? Apple makes hardware specifically intended to run its OSes so you should probably just run their OS on their hardware. If you want a smooth Linux experience buy hardware intended for Linux, or that you know is well supported.

graeme_p

8:31 am on Oct 3, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



tried diff distros, like Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Mint, PepperMint


All those are Debian derivatives, and all but Peppermint are Ubuntu derivatives, and the first three are just Ubuntu with different desktop environments.

explorador

1:07 pm on Oct 3, 2023 (gmt 0)

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graeme_p: you do not even say what distro you are using.

I don't think this comment will age well given what the comment above explains.

Also, your comment fits what I made fun of on the previous thread: I don't have those issues, "but I don't use anything you mention". To be fair, I've watched several videos where users and coders explain why Linux is failing on the desktop world, one of those users: Linus Torvalds. My respect towards this guy has grew over the years, as he is quite clear on his opinion on distros or Linux in general, specially about what's good and what's weak. It's funny he doesn't defend Linux as the average user. And to wrap this bit, I can say in the past things worked better for me, like, right out the box, today? not really.

I think many Linux users miss the point around threads like this one (I know I was one of them).

explorador

1:37 pm on Oct 3, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



tangor: Everything bloats, given enough time and players. There's something to be said for if it ain't broke don't fix it. Then again, one CAN'T remain in the past as some of the new stuff is quite intriguing!

Query: did you wipe/format the drive(s) before each install? I had a heck of a time with one machine which had a "hidden folder" that kept "fixing things" unrelated to its original function!

True. Yes, I tried letting the installer do it's thing, and also manually formatting and partitioning everything. Also used different drives, both for direct install and also via virtual machine. To my surprise, since version X (I don't remember if it was 20 or 22), drives get formatted with GPT scheme by default, something many of us didn't like (specially not being asked or given an option).

To be fair, once installed (just the OS), it ran smoothly, way better than MacOS, but then the trouble began with other configurations.

If you can't eventually laugh at something it will simply make you grumpy. Good to know you can still laugh!
YES! I spent a lot of time on this, but instead of frustration I got constant laughs, I didn't expect this but it was fun.

graeme_p

12:48 pm on Oct 20, 2023 (gmt 0)

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don't think this comment will age well given what the comment above explains.


I do not understand what you mean. You do not say what distro each complaint refers to. Are you saying that every single thing you complain of happens on every single distro? That is not the case.

Some of your complaints are because Linux does not do the impossible. Is there ANY OS that is safe to turn off during updates? If you do not want unattended updates turn it off.

A lot of your issues are with the Ubuntu installer. I have not used Ubuntu for a while, but I never had any issues with it when I did.

ChromeOS (which is desktop Linux - it is a Gentoo derivative) has become pretty widely used. People are quite happy to use desktop Linux.

for newbies... the installer sucks, the install and boot loader options are amazingly confusing.


How easy are the Windows and MacOS installers for newbies? It is easy for geeks to forget, but most people do not install OSes. Most people probably do not even know it is possible - an OS is something that comes preinstalled. A lot of people check computers out because "they get slow because they are old".

I think many Linux users miss the point around threads like this one (I know I was one of them).


So can you explain what the point I am also missing iis then?

engine

1:46 pm on Oct 20, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I found some of the derivatives to be flaky and would have ditched Linux entirely. I've settled on Kubuntu and it's done everything i've expected of it. Importantly, i've been able to redeploy an old XP Windows desktop which had become decidedly slow (for all the reasons we know). The Kubuntu system and interface means that the desktop operated lightening-fast.

The biggest problem I had was getting used to a new UI. Now i'm over that hurdle, the ongoing hurdle is compatibility. No matter what anyone says, there will always be compatibility issues unless you stick with ASCII: That's hardly practical these days, of course.

If you look at Linux from the point of view of an average user, it's just not there, is it? Windows and Mac works out-of-the-box.

explorador

8:58 pm on Oct 20, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



graeme_p: So can you explain what the point I am also missing iis then?
This can be uncomfortable (or not), specially considering this you said: "A lot of your issues are with the Ubuntu installer. I have not used Ubuntu for a while, but I never had any issues with it when I did", I believe this is self explanatory.

As said above, the thread is not a rant, also as said, comes with a bit of comedy. I could say the same as you regarding the installers, because as said, in the past I used Linux daily for over a year for a lot of tasks, but while I managed to get multiple installs without issues, I couldn't replicate this at present time, even... considering my expectations "recent years = more modern = better". To be absolutely fair, I've found more than enough testimonials on the web (even on Youtube) about little progress on the desktop (besides effects...), including comments from Linus himself explaining why Linux didn't win force in the desktop world, not to forget long explanations or rants (from other users) about how Canonical has long lost relevancy. Yes, distros... oh yes, try this one, try that one, nope, I have found these comments to be useful at times, but most times it just derails the conversations and discussions, worse... if we consider some words from Linus himself regarding some stuff being very stable but also very old, because it takes a lot process for things to become accepted and widespread (explained during the binaries discussions, why people don't deliver binaries but instead "compile yourself").

During my recent journey I found interesting things I wanted to try, things that appeared as full tutorials on the web (Youtube) and I didn't have time back then to try (I'm talking about 6-8-12 months ago), and now that I tried... those projects were abandoned, but not only that... the instructions don't work!, and then you get the usual on the comments "this didn't work for me", followed by tons of comments by other linux users saying "it works, you just had to ABCDEx250000 and then FGHI, and BTW you should use X distro, or Z", ok... I get it, but the tutorial was using Manjaro, and suddenly the whole thing doesn't work anymore on Manjaro? come on!, don't get me wrong, I find this funny, very funny.

I entirely agree with this: "If you look at Linux from the point of view of an average user, it's just not there, is it? Windows and Mac works out-of-the-box.", yes, I'm not an average user, but I do value my time and I wanted (context of the thread) to entirely use Linux on the mentioned computer.

graeme_p

4:33 pm on Nov 3, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



A lot of people have problems installing Windows too, and you cannot install Mac OS legally except on a machine it came preinstalled on. Very few people install any OS at all.

"Windows and Mac works out-of-the-box."

Have you tried hardware designed for Linux? I recently bought a Pinetab 2 which is specifically sold as a device for knowledgeable users and it has worked pretty smoothly (does everything I want out of the box, the only things tricky so far have been encryption and some apps that have poor touch screen support). A fair comparison of apple's OS on Mac would be Linux on a machine from someone like System76, Purism, Starlabs etc.

explorador

6:51 pm on Nov 3, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



graeme_p: I could reply in detail, but unfortunately this would take the thread away from the original context. I expected more from Linux considering the years that have passed since my last experience, I honestly hope it gets better in the future, both as a desktop OS, and the support (availability and compatibility) with more applications. Yes, there is a lot of potential for Linux as it is (or buying 100% dedicated hardware for it) but for many of us considering the circumstances, this is still limiting, or mainly a bootloader for a web browser.

Again, while my thread included comedy, I do hope things get better for the regular user.

dstiles

10:17 am on Nov 4, 2023 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I and my wife have been using versions of linux exclusively (except for a legacy web server) for several years with fewer problems than I remember with windows. Whenever I have to do something on the legacy server I usually end up swearing at it. To such an extent that a couple of years ago I began transferring all my wwb aaites to linux/apache/php with a minimum of problems. I had already, a few years ago, moved a mail server from windows to linux and that has been running satisfactorily ever since.

My own work involves web, mail, graphics, multimedia; my wife's turns around libre, web and associated actions. My brother, his son and a friend also use linux quite happily, although I admit my brother uses wine for two or three windows progs he likes and is used to.
 

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