Once again, we're speculating, as we don't know anything about his sector, at least I don't, and I need empirical evidence to draw a factual conclusion.

Not that he isn't a reasonable and rational publisher, but I can't exactly take his word along without seeing some hard evidence to support the premise that MFA's took over the sector.

Yes you are right, however most of what we read here about Adsense is speculation. We all know much of what is posted in these forums is speculation, as it is almost impossible to gather concrete evidence to support the speculative topics discussed here.

Some of us do enjoy reading some what others speculate about. I enjoy reading some and dismiss others as I please. At the end of the day we all know that it is nothing more than speculation and make our decisions accordingly.

[edited by: Scurramunga at 2:46 am (utc) on Aug. 28, 2006]

[...Again, like several Google AdSense people have told me over and over, you get the highest paying ads that convert the best, therefore taking that information from the horses mouth at face value the non-MFA sites in his sector were paying worse....]

******
What is the fact in front of our eyes? If that is not the case, how come MFAs can growth over time?

I don't think a publisher has anything to do that "fighting back" adsense polices, but well prepare ourselve to receive a possible impact from that. We always have the model answer like this: some is getting even better, some still fine, some turned to bad, and some has to quit, but actually all publishers are getting much higher risk and impact over time as the situation got worser.

Not that he isn't a reasonable and rational publisher, but I can't exactly take his word along without seeing some hard evidence to support the premise that MFA's took over the sector.

Again, like several Google AdSense people have told me over and over, you get the highest paying ads that convert the best, therefore taking that information from the horses mouth at face value the non-MFA sites in his sector were paying worse.

I was thinking exactly the same things. One of David's points, with which I agree, is that it detracts from visitor experience to see and click on worthless, deceptive ads. We want our ads to be "value added" to our visitors.

In terms of his CONCLUSION about the cause of the problems in his sector, I can't accept that without far more information. It could be correct, maybe not. As an advertisers I've repeated that if google wants my ad money, they need to clean out the junk on ALL sides (advertisers and content network sites, and I've stopped most of our ad campaigns.

However, I don't think we're typical in that respect.

So, it could be advertisers have pulled out of his sector because of MFA, or it could be simply that as things have matured, advertisers are looking much more carefully at ROI, or it could be that what he's observed is temporary, site specific, etc, etc.

As a site owner, I've pulled adsense off a few sites, too, in effect, quitting when the results don't work for me.

David's situation is a typical case; he is a reasonable and rational publisher, if he has to quit **NOT** because of his own optimization issue (that is his witness to the death of a sector because of MFAs) then it is a general issue not only relevant to just a single or specific sector, it actually implies the **WORST** situation ever.

We don't truely know if his issues are related to MFA's in his sector, however as David has always maintained that MFA's have impacted on his Adwords performance. So is it not better that this issue be discussed? Naturally with any discussion theories will be put foward. The alternative in this case would have been for David were to leave Adsense without having posted this thread.

Yes you are right, however most of what we read here about Adsense is speculation. We all know much of what is posted in these forums is speculation, as it is almost impossible to gather concrete evidence to support the speculative topics discussed here.

First, you and I may be able to separate fact from speculation, but many less experienced people aren't in the same position.

Second, I don't mind speculation, but I DO mind constant attacks (on google, on those that disagree, etc) from the same people who blame google for what often turns out to be their own inability to run a business. It's pointless and there's nothing to be learned from them.

Related is that when I find sites that belong to the "nasty google-dingo ate my livlihood" crowd who blame google for everything, what I almost always find is that they a) have no idea how to create a sustainably successful site and b) have no idea they have no idea. I also am not impressed with the honesty levels of some folks about their "great sites", and what they are doing.

And they take no responsibility for their failures and frustrations.

When I look at sites from members who aren't here to complain (but do speculate), I find sites that are content rich, built over a number of years for sustainability, and are clearly run with a firm grasp of general business and internet business. Those people are worth reading, even when they are speculating.

I wish it was easier to go to sites from the "dingo posters" AND the successful rational people, since visiting the dingo sites sure as hell puts the complaining in context, and visiting the successful people provides really valuable lessons.

rbacal

I guess that I do agree with you on most of these issues then. I too share your disdain regarding irational attacks on Google; the recent topic regarding the Gooooogle being a prime example.

[edited by: Scurramunga at 3:20 am (utc) on Aug. 28, 2006]

[The alternative in this case would have been for David were to leave Adsense without having posted this thread.]

*****
Ummm..... as a rational publisher, I would like to learn those cases and justify it by my own. Though there is no hard fact to support David's argument.

[edited by: GoldenHammer at 3:53 am (utc) on Aug. 28, 2006]

AMEN to this thread!

Just when I thought this forum was loosing it's edge, this brings it right back on track.

First, you and I may be able to separate fact from speculation, but many less experienced people aren't in the same position.

Besides inexperienced, I want to add in the ignorant and the lazy.

Just as I was posting this I realized that "inexperienced" and "ignorant" are probably synonyms in this case, but the thought below would be the same.

Some folks just don't know that there are other places to read besides WebmasterWorld; it's a great place, but not the be all and the end all. People have to read a variety of sources--hopefully some authoritative--in order to form some solid opinions and hypthoses for themselves. That covers the ignorant <added> and inexperienced </added>, and they aren't a lost cause as they can be taught.

Now we come to the lazy. They read a "speculation" and really don't know what it is. They want the "easy way" and don't have the gumption to go and check it out for themselves or track it back to its origin. They spread the misinformation. That's why we find the "So-and-so said..."; "I read in this thread that..."; "I read on WebmasterWorld that it's a fact that..."

I don't know where else to go with this except to say that, Bill (and it is incredible that I'm agreeing with you), this is a great discussion to start. I read the Adsense forum every day so as not to misss something pertinent, but don't post that often because, well, speculation--and its' acceptance before its fact--always seems to go over the top.

One of the tenets that WebmasterWorld was founded on was that hold hands can give new hands a leg up. I'm always flabbergasted at the number of people who will ignore experienced advice and just go with "what they want to hear."

I have to give a "shout out" to EfV and others who have stayed the course--and have been roundly criticized for it--by giving the facts on the ground as they are.

I would suggest put more focus on the positive things you can change to improve your income and waste less time on those things that are beyond your control.

Oh, and I do want to go back and reiterate hunderdown's reiteration of the statement in Bill's first post. Depending on what page you're on and how many posts you have displayed you might have missed it.

It's a very important statement and doesn't just relate to Adsense, but most of search engine marketing and optimization, besides, well, let's not go too far with it right now.

Ummm..... as a rational publisher, I would like to learn those cases and justify it by my own.

Oh I agree. However listening to an external point of view can sometimes stimulate the thought process somewhat. In Davids case, I suspect he has been an Adsense publisher a lot longer than I have so I am always willing to hear what he (or any senior members here) has to say.

and it is incredible that I'm agreeing with you

Between you and Cornwall, I'm starting to get a complex!

Hey Bill,

Does this include my annual GoogleGift whine(tm) too?

I hope not... I'm all fired up and ready to beg.

These same discussions on the same topics have been going round and round for two years now that I've been watching and it's obvious that Google will do what Google wants to do and nothing has changed on these topics, total waste or time.

So you can either live with the status quo, which you've been doing regardless of all the complaining, or QUIT.

Going back to Bill's first post. It raises a serious editorial question regarding WebmasterWorld policy with this forum.

There have been a number of attempts over those two years to get the WebmasterWorld AdSense forum more focused. For example to put it on pre-mod, to cut some of the more repetitive posts, to split the forum into two, etc.

The decision has obviously been made to carry on with the forum here "as is".

I believe that the knock on effect has been for many of the longer term AdSense publishers to cut down or indeed stop posting here. Whether that is good, bad or indifferent to the health of the forum, one can debate :(

Maybe it's because I'm a relative newbie, but I find the adsense forum the most interesting. Even if there may be a level of repetition with the issues that come up, it's still very much more "alive" than a lot of forums.

Through reading the posts here I've been able to put together a decent list of blocked URLs, optimised my advert positioning, and recently deleted my channels! Perhaps without the discussions that go on here I would be earning less than I do now.

Personally the only disagreement I would have would be with posts that say "if you don't like it, leave".. I don't feel it's a constructive message. Adsense is not easy to predict, especially when you have low visitor numbers. Giving new publishers the message that they should simply walk away if it doesn't work at first is (IMHO) not helpful.

I don't know about sarcasm, but what Bill said in his initial post is my determinate- the bottom line.

For several years now I have had little to no consideration for what my users want to look at. When I did, I found that I ended up planning on building content for what I see as bling-bling twirly whirlies and puff-n-fluff stupid things. That would make me hate what I do.

I've been in adsense about a year and a half. I write what I please and take the bad with the good. There's always been enough for developing. I don't cheat, get tricky or sly. I try to improve my site. There's been an improving bottom line, maybe not every month, but it works for me.

If my visitors want to click on MFAs, Bling-bling phone rings and Hoodia, that's their problem. I probably wouldn't hang with them anyhow. I have better things to do- develop content I'm comfortable with.

Personally the only disagreement I would have would be with posts that say "if you don't like it, leave".. I don't feel it's a constructive message. Adsense is not easy to predict, especially when you have low visitor numbers. Giving new publishers the message that they should simply walk away if it doesn't work at first is (IMHO) not helpful.

I think the message is aimed largely at the publishers who complain month after month, and who haven't learned one of the most basic lessons from Web Publishing 101: If a revenue source isn't working despite the publisher's best efforts, it might be time to try something new.

Fact is, some sites aren't a good match for AdSense, and vice versa--just as some sites aren't good matches for affiliate programs or display-ad networks. On my own site, Amazon.com links were a waste of space even when I had an Amazon link on every page. Yet some publishers earn decent money from Amazon. Did I get mad at Amazon and post endless diatribes on affiliate forums when Amazon links didn't perform for me? No. I experimented and learned what did (and still does) work.

Publishers need to remember that using AdSense ads isn't a commitment; it's an ongoing experiment. If the ads work, great. If not, maybe the publisher simply needs to tell Google, "You're fired."

>>>Giving new publishers the message that they should simply walk away if it doesn't work at first is (IMHO) not helpful.<<<

yep, that message won't help google fix adsense, and it's a stain on the reputation of WebmasterWorld.

attacking publishers who are having problems with adsense isn't the answer.

Giving new publishers the message that they should simply walk away if it doesn't work at first is (IMHO) not helpful.

It wasn't aimed at new publishers at all if you noted that I mentioned the same discussions have been going on for 2 years.

The main point at the bottom of the original post which was wasn't to actually QUIT, but to put more focus on the positive things you can control to improve your income.

I'm a huge AdSense fan and the constant biting of the hand feeding all these people isn't helpful to new publishers, as a matter of fact it sends the wrong message that AdSense is nothing but trouble.

yep, that message won't help google fix adsense, and it's a stain on the reputation of WebmasterWorld.

Not like any of the constant conspiracy posts about smart pricing don't stain anyone's reputation so let's not even go there.

I would hope the outcome of this thread would be more positive and helpful posts about things we've done to increase our income so new publishers walk away stoked about using AdSense but I'm not sure people are willing to share anymore.

I remember back when we used to discuss how to use channels, blending, hot spots and such to improve earnings and then AdLinks came along and gave many of us a good boost in revenue.

Is there just nothing positive left to share?

Hi incrediBILL,

There *is* plenty positive to share. G has been a generally good experience from start to finish for me, with some occasional personal attention beyond the call of duty (as well as the odd rough patch)...

As you say, those constantly screaming "GOOGLE == EVIL" and complaining about how slow the megabucks EFT is taking this month are just very very childish and tired and stupid and ... well ... should leave the program and leave the cash to those of us who *are* happy with it ...

Well, anyway, you and I agree on this... Nuff said.

Rgds

Damon

Fight back?

A publisher working on his/her own site(s) and worrying less about MFAs, etc might be a good place to start.

Am I dreaming? In a vacuum? So many long-term members in agreement...has iBill run out of tequila?

I'm still waiting for someone to try and hijack this thread...now where was I?

I know, it's Beer time:-)

adsense bothers us because there is not nearly an alternative for our content sites. we cannot quit.

Why?

What is that?

We ran out of Tequila!

OMG

So, it could be advertisers have pulled out of his sector because of MFA, or it could be simply that as things have matured, advertisers are looking much more carefully at ROI, or it could be that what he's observed is temporary, site specific, etc, etc.

I believe advertisers are smarter now than when AdSense first started, and they are paying attention to the performance of their ads. It is no secret that people are leaving the content network, for example. But when I bring this up, I get flamed at that I'm somehow being "unfair" to publishers and that advertisers are "greedy".

But when I bring this up, I get flamed at that I'm somehow being "unfair" to publishers and that advertisers are "greedy".

Why should someone flame that?

Of course advertisers are greedy!

When you buy an ad the purpose is to make money, and if you aren't making any money then you stop buying those ads as it's wasting money best spent elsewhere.

Not all sites attract visitors that are looking to spend money therefore they don't convert and it's a waste of ad money on those sites, which maybe the advertiser pulls out from selectively and only keeps ads on the top earning sites.

Not sure how that's unfair to the publisher or why it's even relevant except some publishers may find they have a wake-up call that they built a site that isn't designed for business.

Oh wait, I forgot that mantra many chant "don't write for making money, write what makes you happy" - and I can state with certainty that working for free and being poor makes very few people happy.

I believe advertisers are smarter now than when AdSense first started, and they are paying attention to the performance of their ads. It is no secret that people are leaving the content network, for example.

Sure, and some advertisers go on running AdSense ads for years (I've seen that on my own pages), while new ones come along all the time. It's just like advertising in the world of paper, ink, and radio/TV waves.

But when I bring this up, I get flamed at that I'm somehow being "unfair" to publishers and that advertisers are "greedy".

They aren't as greedy as publishers who think they deserve to be subsidized by advertisers. At least the greedy advertisers are payers, not payees. :-)

gregbo:
I get flamed at that I'm somehow being "unfair" to publishers and that advertisers are "greedy".

It's probably very tempting to use the word"greedy" in a the context of a heated discussion, however as it is mostly used to emotive weight to an argument the word "greedy" is almost irrelevant. Publishers and Advertisers all have expectations with regards to investment returns or 'bottom line' so it's only natural that each will strive to achieve maximum returns. Whether or not greed involved is irrelevant because in the end it's about the little point where the supply and demand curves meet.

[edited by: Scurramunga at 11:20 pm (utc) on Aug. 28, 2006]

members in agreement

Easy there Opti, been trying to catch up after being away for a while and I can tell you right away that incrediBILL's wake up call of take it or leave it is a bit like fixing a broken clock with a hammer.

I'll take it from the bottom now due to time constraints:

attract visitors that are looking to spend money

And how many of those as a rough % of overall surfers, we all get our share of those some do better than most, fair enough, but please don't tell me that G has perfected the science of 'sensing' conversions. Also there are advertisers that target your site topic or demography for branding not immediate conversion.

Love your posts incrediBILL, but I won't leave it because it makes good money, and I won't just take it because G is encouraging WW community to have discussions on how it can be better, also because I know it can be better.

That said, I agree, we could use a little less complaining.

Sorry to jump in onto the last post, and not sure when I'll be able to follow up, but thought to leave my graffiti in a rush

We could use a little less complaining is for sure; BUT this forum is a treasure trove for Google, let's not forget. There are two Google employees assigned to watch threads here to keep a pulse on AdSense and Adwords. I know my constant kervetching (sic?) is what led to Google relaxing the rules on the modifying the search box (or so I like to think). But seriously there is a place here for open dialogue about what works on AS and what doesn't. Maybe more threads on how to eliminate and I mean realistically eliminate problems are what Google will take seriously.

My real life employer nets 1/2 a billion profit per year on 3 billion in revenues. When I go into a meeting and suggest we change something because I think it's a good idea, how far do you think I'll get when the bosses start getting indepth on a proposal. Without well thought out reasoning and numbers, not very far. It's the same situation for Google teams. Smart pricing is Google's system for adding value to their advertisers and I don't think its going away any time soon. Google's policies are put in place by its team managers in co-ordination with their engineers who spot problems and try to solve them as they occur. Each and every update means more earnings for some and less for others. It always going to be a constant cycle and the winners will be those who try to last for the long term, just like any corporation.