Forum Moderators: martinibuster
I am really wondering what the heck is going on?
Google finally discovered that landing page quality is important for their business. Cool.
Apparently they changed the Adwords system in a way that poor landing pages have to pay more to get into the listings (see Adwords forum for details). Fine. Some advertisers report bids of up to $10 (per click!) in order to get back into the listings. A bit hefty, maybe, but at least my revenues should climb like hell with such bids. But nope, after seven rock-stable and predictable weeks, all figures seem to fluctuate wildly with no predictability whatsoever. For my sites.
I noticed that a number of advertisers apparently have fallen off the market recently, which is no surprise to me. When looking at the ads with the preview tool, I usually saw all slots populated; now I came for the first time across a "half filled" preview tool. Still enough for ad blocks to be populated, but not that endless supply of ads as it used to be. I guess this is due to some advertisers having cancelled their campaigns. Which is still fine - if these were MFAs.
But no, I still see MFAs with nothing else than more ads or affiliate links on their landing page on my site. Sometimes even populating the first slot of a leaderboard that shows just two ads! That ad, for example, that leads to the Canadian crap company that runs zillions of crap domains with nothing more than just links on it. These would be the easiest to extinguish. But no - they are still around!
So, apparently some legitimate advertisers are dropping off! Some? Many? Was this intended? Why do we still see MFAs? At $10 per click, their business simply can not be profitable! How comes?
Personally I feel that instead of relying on buggy algos and more secrecy, Google should have given us BETTER TOOLS to defend against MFAs. The collective wisdom of webmasters is much more intelligent than any algo can be. Many of us would certainly max-out those tools, and the collective knowledge could further help Google to kill MFAs. But we are still left with our crappy competitive filter of 200 slots that hardly can compete with domain spammers that run, let's say, 39,302 domains on one IP address with nothing but crap on it.
ASA has fallen into utter silence for some time, I guess in the depressing lack of answers. Is he still around? What is he doing all day? Shouldn't he be around here and contribute with Google's view of things? Well, canned responses are not appreciated here, which may be part of the problem. Google has never been good at communicating with us (their business partners) anyway, but ASA was at least a light at the end of the tunnel.
What is the conclusion of this post, you might ask?
- The intended quality improvement has not fully materialized. We are still seeing loads of crap. Where is a PhD when you need one?
- Apparently those crap advertisers that we see are wanted by Google. Otherwise they would have removed these advertisers with this update.
- The whole Adwords/Adsense system seems to be derailed, in my view. Both advertisers and publishers are now upset. Well done, Google!
- Looking at the comments here and over at the Adwords-Forum, Google has set another record of non-communication in this case. Congratulations!
- Publishers need more information and more control over the ads that display on their sites. I predict that we won't get these from Google anytime soon.
And please, do not reply by saying - "that's Adsense, you are free to leave the program". I know that I may leave the program anytime. But truth is (and I said this many times before) that I really like Adsense and the idea behind it. In fact, it could be a great program. It's just that the execution is sooo poor that it's maddening me.
End of rant.
I am still hoping this will actually work, and it will all settle down in a couple of weeks. It's still early days yet.
My observations so far:-
1, Some of the MFA's have gone from both search and content. The one I hated most and reported many times (they stopped responding to my emails in the end) doesn't appear in search or content. That's the positive side of things.
2, The negative side of things is that EVEN MORE of the genuine advertisers have simply given up and left. The problem I was having was that my keyword was apparently a high paying one, so the MFA's moved in to capitalise on that. The real advertisers then either reduced their campaigns or left. Now even more of them have left - smart move Google. Most of the advertisers in the sector were not big corporations but small medical practices who obviously did well out of the advertising before the MFA's moved into all the top slots on search. The didn't want to repeatedly up their bids to get the top slots over advertisers who were a) paying considerably less than they were for the slots and b) didn't convert either. I am in contact with a few of the practices as they are contributors to site content in some way, so I do have some insight into their needs and frustrations with Google.
Google should have been listening to us - they DON'T always know best. They might have many PHD's on the staff, but intellectuals often lack one thing we all have - common sense. One guy we know with a PHD in maths came to a BBQ at our house recently. Despite watching me cook the food he asked "Is it hot"? I thought that this was a stupid question under the circumstances so relpied "No". He then took a big chunk and burned his mouth. Intellectuals might be bright in some ways, but they aren't always equipped for life in the real world. So Google, use your PHD's to write the algo's but use us for common sense.
I'd have liked to have seen two block lists - one for genuine competitors and one "Spam bucket". They could have collectively used all of the spam buckets to trigger reviews of sites and then boot them out manually. Yes, they are going to have to run Adsense using scalable solutions but there has to be some form of manual validation that these solutions work. There isn't any. As you say, the algo's are buggy and this one is no exception.
Like many here I call on Google to provide us tools to do the job. We are the ones that identified the problem of MFA's. We are the ones that have been discussing them and providing evidence to Google. We are the ones that should reap some reward for our efforts - not just have the MFA's removed from search and dumped on us!
It's possible that if the MFA's can't get into search that content alone isn't going to work for them. Therefore eventually they will die out. However, Google should have removed them from content as well as search from day 1.
How about some answers Google?
Simple answer is they aren't going to appeal against the hike - they just regard it as the final nail in the coffin and leave. There are other places to advertise with a lot less hassle.
As I wrote in another thread, I got a manual review done by G on my site . I run a small estore specifically targetting my country and my ads also specifically advertise my 'red widgets' only. My site has failed the review and I got a long email from them. It seems they have put in a effort to actually review the site and they were not happy.
IMO, they donot really care if you ar an MFA/Merchant/Affiliate etc. All they want is their guidelines to be met.
Even an MFA can exist ( on Search),if he meets the G guidelines. As the guidelines are strict and are meant to provide a unique positive experience to their 'pampered' surfers, most MFA's/Affiliates/some merchants have been knocked off.
However they have been knocked off their 'search network'. Content has not been affected. Actually they are pushing more sites to the 'content' side by pushing 'site tragetting (CPM) ads ( new messages on the adWords interface are exhorting advertisers to try their improved 'site targetting facillity') and they are also increasing impressions on the content side. Most advertisers ( including MFA's) I suspect are upping 'content' bids slightly and pushing for CPM ads to try and compensate. I guess this will lead to a rise in MFA's also on the publisher network. These MFA's may pay a little more (but the increase will be very small) and they will definitely spread all over, filling up the slots left by many genuine advertisers who have been marked as 'low quality' on a/c of various factors.
IMO G will do very little on the 'content' side as 'content' is not the sole preserve of Google search and other engines also push visitors on the publishing network. Clicks generated by a non google search is not really their concern. They don't care about the 'landing page' experience of non google surfers or surfers who click on Google ads on the publishing network as long as they are not through sponsored Search.
'Content network' is definitely going to be hit in the short term. What they do in the longer term is anyones guesss.
Clicks generated by a non google search is not really their concern.
You are right when looking at the experience of the visitor. They didn't come from the Google search engine so they do not directly link the ad, or quality of the landing page with Google.
But from a financial and business operational perspective, it is something completely different. Google is now the main search engine and the largest part of their income is generated via ads on Google search. But when the search market changes rapidly (we have seen this before with Altavista for example) their main source of income will dry up and they need an alternative source of money. Stockholders will demand that there is a backup source of income when Google search suddenly stops generating the big bucks, and therefore Google has to stay in the content network, even if it is not their main source of income and probably more troublesome to maintain with all those small untrusted publishers than the ads in the search network.
ASA has fallen into utter silence
How about some answers Google?
I know neither of you is new here so you must be kidding.
Years taught me that Google will not put its earnings in the hands of someone else, so don't hold your breath for more tools, I also know that Google is allergic to manual anything, the best one can do is register their disapproval, which we are all doing daily anyway.
There are other places to advertise with a lot less hassle
I agree with you David that it is too early to judge, the theory is good on paper, so let's allow it to run for a while, if anyone knows all the parameters it is Google, and when was the last time they shot themselves in the foot?
Years taught me that Google will not put its earnings in the hands of someone else, so don't hold your breath for more tools, I also know that Google is allergic to manual anything, the best one can do is register their disapproval, which we are all doing daily anyway.
I agree with all your statements. I will not propose any improvements to Adsense service any more. There have been several threads here that have been dealing specifically with feature requests to Adsense (i.e. the publishing side of things) - but what did we get from all this? Nothing, nada, zip, zilch, nichts, de rien...
Instead, what we are seeing is that Google apparently is
1) managed to make genuine advertisers leave Adwords AND Adsense
2) shoving all the garbage over to the content network
which may have a serious impact on our revenues.
As I said, it's been a rant, not something directed at someone listening to feature suggestions or trying to improve the service. I am tired of requesting better tools. Right now, I am waiting for suitable alternatives.
But one thing I know for sure: alternatives WILL come up, sooner or later, so it's just a matter of time until things improve.
from a financial and business operational perspective, it is something completely different. Google is now the main search engine and the largest part of their income is generated via ads on Google search. But when the search market changes rapidly (we have seen this before with Altavista for example) their main source of income will dry up and they need an alternative source of money.
Excellent analysis. I could not agree more.
Maybe someone has decided that the 20% profit off Adsense is simply not interesting enough to bother with? All the complaining webmasters and advertisers, all the MFA junk, all the DMCA complaints, all the manual reviews, all the PIN sending, all the cheques. The list is endless. Maybe they are thinking: "Is it really worth it?"
It is possible that some focusing is going on at Google, with the strategic goal to increase profit from their core source - which is their own search engine (profit is 100%, instead of a mere 20%).
The only reason to keep Adsense is 1) having a backup and 2) not having to admit publicly that Adsense was a failure.
The fact that google has implimented a quality standard is not new....just how it is currently being applied is. We have been reading about the MFA's on this board for months and if google has finally decided to penalize them we should (based on previous posts) be encouraging these changes. Have they gone too far with the algo? Perhaps but only time will tell. Quite bluntly if my earnings over the past few days are indicative of where google is going...I say get there faster:)
managed to make genuine advertisers leave Adwords AND Adsense
i don't buy this view, that people start to leave adwords/adsense to a large extent now.
what is the alternative to the world's leading online advertising tool? let's face it, despite frequent understandable rant most participants are still doing just fine, at least far better than without the adwords/adsense option. so the network is still growing strongly despite being thrashed to death time and time again. all the more because online advertising as such is the growth market of the future.
by now google should have realized, that quality control regarding advertisers and publishers is an essential part of system functionality. but as we all know, they unfortunately like to do it without manual intervention.
i think landing page score or the like can be a huge improvement on the advertiser side just as smart pricing was due to control bad publishers. let's see how they tweak it to the right direction. the acid test of course will be when we empty our ban list. i'll do that next week just to have a look at the state of affairs (although i'm not optimistic at this stage). i for one would gladly transfer the ad quality management job to a functioning google algo rather than be given more options for publisher side tools e.g. filter list.
[edited by: moTi at 12:25 pm (utc) on July 15, 2006]
I agree with you David that it is too early to judge, the theory is good on paper, so let's allow it to run for a while, if anyone knows all the parameters it is Google, and when was the last time they shot themselves in the foot?
Frequently I think is the answer. Every single "improvement" or "upgrade" causes some unexpected negative events that vary with severity, and always surprises them. However, what seems to happen is they make changes on the fly to try and correct things. It does rather make you think that they really don't test these upgrade in any meaningful way, and in many cases don't have a clue as to what it will do when unleashed on the planet.
I don't buy the idea that Advertisers have to be seen advertising on Google. OK, for some maybe but it has to be effective, especially for small advertisers. And the problem here is that the advertisers in my sector have pretty well all dropped out, or (hopefully) temporarily suspended campaigns until this mess sorts itself out. Google has to actually work for advertisers - they can't simply rely on the name as they seem to be doing in part these days.
I don't buy the idea that content is not of use to them, and they are involved under some sort of sufferage. They might care less about it than search (understandably) but they can't allow prime content sites to migrate to other networks, which is what might happen if they don't sort the mess out and stop dumping MFA's on content.
The other comment I'd make is that voicing opinions here is not useless. Google have said they use this message board for feedback, and that they value the feedback here. If they act on it is another matter, but they do listen. I also believe that some changes or improvements to the system have happened as a result of this board postings. It may be that the continuous drumbeat about MFA's over the last year or so here has finally sunk in - hence they are taking it seriously at last. OK - they have come up with a stupid system that actually makes quality advertisers leave, and shunt the crap onto the very people that identified the problem in the first place, but it's a start! Maybe they will eventually get round to helping us, so it's deffinitely worth persevering with the nagging.
voicing opinions here is not useless
The adwords min bid changes to not directly affect the content network.
However, if there are regular (not MFA) advertisers like me who have been hit to some degree then I expect content bids to go up slightly to make up for the lost in search clicks. I've raised mine a bit.
Or, it could hurt adwords/adsense if many advertisers move to MSN/Yahoo (I'm in the adcenter 10 day waiting period now).
And I don't think advertisers are leaving Google in droves, either. None of my client accounts were hit, but if they had been, my orders would have been "do whatever it takes" from at least five out of six of them, meaning raise the minimum bids to whatever it takes to still appear. There's still no other place to get the same exposure for this kind of money. Comparable print advertising would cost much more - even Yellow Pages, by the time you add up all the books in which you'd have to appear. And I've still got a waiting list of clients who want me to take their campaigns under my wing, that I just don't have time for yet. More call every day. Google hasn't even scraped the surface of the potential advertising pool.
I still see MFAs with nothing else than more ads or affiliate links on their landing page on my site. Sometimes even populating the first slot of a leaderboard that shows just two ads!
IMO - I really don't think it would be too terribly hard for most MFA's to beat the quality meter. I mean, if you look at your weblogs at all - you know most of the IP's that Google bots from ... I just found one of the "quality bots" yesterday. A few minutes on ARIN will get you the entire netblock ranges that they have allocated. After that, it's likely a trivial exercise for the MFA publisher to "cloak" his site to the entire spectrum of registered Google IP addresses - which would affect their bots, human reviews, everyone. Make it look like a really useful site to Google, and pure MFA junk to everyone else. Not hard at all.
So once again, Google has tried to approach this problem with technology (what a bunch of eggheads) rather than tightening up and enforcing their policies.
I wonder -- does anyone think that Google might actually be *scared* to shut down the MFAs? Think about it -- we all know that there's some out there that are likely making very significant money off of their business models ... probably in the millions per year ... and probably have a very low cost of operation (probably no more than a few servers and headcount).
If you're making so much money, so easily - and Google cuts you off completely ... what would you do? Simple - you'd probably sue ... sue to be re-instated, sue for lost revenues, whatever. The simple fact is - if you're making so much money so quickly, you're not going to simply walk away from it without a fight. I know I wouldn't. So you'd drag Google into the courts...
I bet they're afraid of dealing with the monster that they've created ....
The adwords min bid changes to not directly affect the content network.
Right - the changes will not affect content directly. But if I were an advertiser, especially those who are not as Internet savvy as most of us here, and I'd see my bid prices go up from, say, $0.30 to $5.00 - then I would drop Google completely.
In my niche I have a lot of small businesses who usually are running small web sites. Their pages are, um, not beautiful at all, but very legitimate. Again, these are not Internet people. They might have budgeted for some online advertising, and might have had some limited success with Adwords. But this increase lets them re-think their online strategy, because it does not make sense, commercially, to continue these experiments.
Just think about it: if you sell goods/services that are $100 on average, how many $10 clicks can you afford? How many non-converting $10 clicks can you afford?
Correct: not too many. So what do these people do? Do they switch on content, or do they switch off Adwords completely? I am seeing that people halt their campaigns. Which mirrors the voices over at the Adwords forum.
So the recent changes affect us indirectly.
BTW, I emptied my blocking list today to see what happens. I'll keep you posted.
So you'd drag Google into the courts..
This is just one simple line of a very complex set of Terms and Conditions:
Google may investigate any activity that may violate this Agreement. Google may at any time, in its sole discretion, terminate all or part of the Program, terminate this Agreement, or suspend or terminate the participation of any Site in all or part of the Program for any reason.
I think they thought long and hard about lawsuit possibilties before the Adsense program even breathed life and I doubt very much that a disgruntled publisher would have much success taking them to court... for ANY reason.
Chapman
i certainly haven't seen *any* epc increase that would reflect those absurd keyword prices... i don't use adwords, are you sure that it's the content side that's seeing that?
green_grass, your point about google promoting cpm on the content side is very interesting... it sounds like google wants to replace the mfa trash with low-rent cpm, and also eliminate click fraud at the same time.
MO G will do very little on the 'content' side as 'content' is not the sole preserve of Google search and other engines also push visitors on the publishing network. Clicks generated by a non google search is not really their concern. They don't care about the 'landing page' experience of non google surfers or surfers who click on Google ads on the publishing network as long as they are not through sponsored Search.
We'll see. It obviously makes sense for them to upgrade the "user experience" on the search side, because (a) Google is their branded site, and (b) on a Google SERP, many users probably don't know the difference between an organic search listing and an AdWords ad, even with visual separation on the page.
On the other hand, they need to keep revenues growing on the content network, too, and they need to keep AdSense from being a dumping ground for junk ads if they want to attract more mainstream advertisers. They also need to protect the value of the Google name (though they could do this by changing "Ads by Gooooogle" or "Ads by Google" to "Ads by AdSense").
One possible solution would be to offer site-targeted CPC ads--not just site-targeted CPM ads)--with advertisers paying a premium for placement on sites of their choosing. Such ads could be subject to "quality scores," just like ads on the search network, to enhance the user experience and attract higher-quality, higher-paying advertisers to site-targeted CPC ads. Traditional, run-of-network CPC ads would still be available for advertisers who didn't feel the need for site targeting and weren't picky about their fellow advertisers.
i certainly haven't seen *any* epc increase that would reflect those absurd keyword prices... i don't use adwords, are you sure that it's the content side that's seeing that?
Yes, we are sure. The "absured keyword prices" in Adwords only apply to search. In fact, because I have had to raise some of my keyword prices for search (in the few cases where it is affordable), I have LOWERED my bids for content network, in order to make up the difference.
I do not think the content network benefits from the so called "page quality" changes. Adwords advertisers, including MFAs are still welcome to bid, and bid as low as they like, on the content network.
I do not think the content network benefits from the so called "page quality" changes. Adwords advertisers, including MFAs are still welcome to bid, and bid as low as they like, on the content network.
Some advertisers have said they're more likely to advertise on the content network than before. So the changes on the search side could increase competition (and bids) for AdSense ads. It's too early to tell.
We also don't know what changes are coming to the AdSense network, though we can be confident that the network will continue to evolve as it has over the last three years.
My site has failed the review
I went and read your other thread, since it's always interesting to hear something about what an actual Google employee said. Unfortunately, it wasn't as educational as I had hoped. It looked pretty much like you're simply suffering from mechanical problems that fail to let the Google robots get at the content.
Although your posts seem to focus on other issues, from what statements you've presented, it seems highly likely that if you would simply allow Google bots to browse your content, and serve your dynamic content up with reasonable URLs, you would fix the problem.
Other folks have allowed Google bots to access content that ordinary users must register to read, and have mapped their bot-unfriendly dynamic URLs onto URLs that cause bots no problems without undue hardship.
I currently pay about two to three cents per click for ads for which the landing page is butt-ugly, hand-coded HTML, and most pages except the home page are dynamically generated (not that anybody need know that -- the URLS generated are very simple) by a simple CGI script. Although indubitably ugly, the content is relevant to the ad, and gives visitors exactly what they expected to get based on reading the ad.
The adds are interesting. Firstly, I've been saying for a while that the number of advertisers have been decreasing in my area, both before the QS algo because of the MFA problem, and since the algo introduction it's increased. Most of the ads that used to appear on Google now show on YPN. Either they have switched completely, or they have turned off Google and stepped up YPN.
Secondly, NOT ONE SINGLE MFY in a block of 16 ads. I'm going to email Adsense support and see if they care to comment. I'm expecting that they wont :)
