Taking a step back I remember when this stuff first started breaking in the news. So many people were so quick to jump on the bandwagon painting Edward Snowden as a traitor.

Neither then, nor now, did I perceive him as a traitor, villain nor a hero. I just observed the situation as someone doing the right thing.

That fellow pretty much made up his mind to forever surrender his life as he knew it. That takes tremendous courage that extremely few people in this world have. And he did it not for just Americans but for humanity.

Individuals who still view him as a villain are the real traitors -- of humanity.

And for the NSA guys reading this. I'll check in on you to see how you're doing while making my rounds of hell.

The NSA's response was something in the lines of "Why would we do this, when we have legal access to them (Google, Yahoo, etc)" and I tend to agree.

Remember that the original story was that Google, Yahoo and Microsoft had given access to their backend, not that the NSA hacked into it.

The way Google has been avoiding antitrust scrutiny by the US government - I'm just not buying the "innocent" Google here. Oh, Google somehow mistakenly collected wifi information all over the world, stored that information and is STILL keeping it, after being legally ordered to destroy it by the EU?! Give me a break, Google has been in cahoots with the NSA for a long time, this latest "revelation" sounds like PR campaign by Google, Yahoo and MS to play the victim.

I give the story the benefit of the doubt, since several of Snowden's past disclosures received direct, or sometimes indirect confirmation from credible sources.

The White House statements, as well as policy changes, around spying on leaders from allied countries is one of many obvious examples.

I bet the German chancellor believes this new leak is credible :)

The way Google has been avoiding antitrust scrutiny by the US government - I'm just not buying the "innocent" Google here. Oh, Google somehow mistakenly collected wifi information all over the world, stored that information and is STILL keeping it, after being legally ordered to destroy it by the EU?!

Also, I'd be surprised to learn the NSA was better at hacking than Google et al are at detecting they've been hacked. A great engineer can make a lot more money at a private company than with the government.

I don't think we're anywhere near the bottom of this yet. The NSA is starting to sound like Hoover's FBI, which supposedly had so much dirt on everybody that they were pulling strings all over the world.

I can tell you this, Germany is pisst, with all this big brother thing, the bad guys has already won, we all stand for freedom, not surveillance.

I don't think we're anywhere near the bottom of this yet.

Actually we're progressing along better than most are aware ;)

It was bound to happen sooner or later. It's the tale of a no strings attached (nsa) relationship between two snakes, Pingala the greedy one (goo) and Ida who lives in fear (nsa). Spy versus spy. They have been trying to penetrate into the stream of consciousness (Sushamna) with each their own mirroring keys, 73 x 37 = 2701

The proper union of the two snakes lifts one up to wonderful new 2701 experiences [whatabeginning.com...] . Whereas, these guys instead went through to this 2701 [law.cornell.edu...] The latter has dire consequences as they will learn in due time. Such is the danger of walking the razor thin double edged sword.

That's what happens when one has it nose in the other one's apps. Rather than smelling the lotus fragrances Ida now only smells mountaindoo. When the google guys, as indicated in the story, shouted out expletives it wasn't because they were peeved about violation of privacy (they are masters of it, or so they thought) it was because their egos were shattered when they realized the NSA was sucking data out of their pipes.

Really guys, no ill will towards you. In fact to prove it I'll buy you guys a beer (when on my internship field trip rounds of hell).

P.Ssssssssssssss: if it hasn't occurred to the snakes, they won't have any female company with them. I think it's fair to alert them that they'll still have their reptilian instincts to mate, eat or be eaten. Have fun!

Remember the days when Google sycophants dismissed the Google's ties to the NSA as tin foil conspiracy?

"The union of the snake is on the climb."

I always suspected Simon leBon was a prophet. :D :D :D

This thing is taking on quite a momentum:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/04/eric-schmidt-nsa-spying-data-centres-outrageous

It's beyond hypocritical to read Schmidt feigning surprise and shock. It defies describing. I wanted to post some productive comments to bring up debate here but I really can't think of how to put this stuff in perspective. Besides that I cannot figure out if people don't want to debate it due to fear or simply because everyone is beginning to feel burnt out (like I'm feeling burnt out).

What I am sensing though is a worldwide quake concerning doing business with American based companies. It's not only in that article I just linked to (the readers comments). I've been reading many different sources to to properly gauge the scope of worldwide outrage and it is tremendous.

I'm beginning to suspect that the ensuing tidal wave is going to do some very serious damage to the American economy. Trust has been totally annihilated. I also want to make it clear that I'm not pointing fingers directly at American citizens because many of them are as victimized as the rest of the world. The real villains are the greedy power hungry corporations that breed future politicians or cull the existing ones they didn't breed.

It's beginning to feel like World War III. In that sense it's interesting to realize that it's going to be fought not on battle fields with destructive weapons, but in living room armchairs using keypads. Neither will there be any bloodshed. We are evolving after all. Keep calm, carry on, all these things must come to pass.

P.S. Why don't you NSA guys reading this create some anon accounts and join us in the discussion. You already know we're a sane friendly bunch. Pull up a chair. Don't be afraid.

< footnote: our Toronto Mayor Rob Ford has been jamming the NSA's ability to track anything for a while now with his own worldwide exposure flooding the internet. That cesspool that we call the internet that Schmidt used to refer to...it's now draining into google's backyard. And when Ford plugs it up it's going to get real nasty. >

Well, the reason I'm not debating this is that I blame the US govt for a lot of this, but we're not really supposed to talk politics here. Also, I'm not sure where to start. I would probably rant about intelligence community culture, cultural conceptions of privacy, all-or-nothing theories on free market regulation, etc.

Plus, for me, Snowden is only confirming stuff I privately assumed was going on for years. I mean, it's established fact that Hoover had the FBI illegally tracking and wiretapping people decades ago, and GE sold weapons to terrorists... having watched the news all my life, I already have some idea what extremely powerful organizations tend to get up to. It's just human nature.

Well, the reason I'm not debating this is that I blame the US govt for a lot of this, but we're not really supposed to talk politics here.

IMHO we can keep this discussion moving in the proper direction without turning towards politics. This was going to happen regardless of which administration was in place. Government Administrations come and go but the core of the executive branches that foster these subversive activities lives on. We're progressing to a point where elected officials are becoming puppets of profit (not prophet, like they should be striving for). But something that is being eroded even more quickly is democracy.

The core focus of this thread should be one of a right to privacy. I've been jumping up and down about it here on Webmaster World for at least the last 2 years. In many instances members would say relax, it's only metadata. Ha, they were so fooled (being drunk on googleaid) [schneier.com...] -- that's just a very concise definition of metadata but at the bottom of the article there are another 9 outbound links leading to healthy perspectives from other sources. However, it's human nature to not bite the hand that's feeding our children. I'm not going to point a finger at any member (unless they insist on an arm wrestling match) because I'm not sure how I myself would have reacted if I was a monthly recipient of google welfare money. If I was, and when this came to light, I know myself well enough to know I would have probably walked away after establishing alternative streams of income. There's always a way to earn an income without enabling evil to flourish. My opinion is based on me having walked away from real world jobs when I saw internal politics of things I didn't agree with.

The way Google has been avoiding antitrust scrutiny by the US government - I'm just not buying the "innocent" Google here.

The following is a very strong argument in favour of what atlrus is saying. It doesn't require a whole lot of imagination to see the back-scratching going on:

The NSA is also in the business of spying on everyone, and it has realized it's far easier to collect all the data from these corporations rather than from us directly. In some cases, the NSA asks for this data nicely. In other cases, it makes use of subtle threats or overt pressure. If that doesn't work, it uses tools like national security letters.

The result is a corporate-government surveillance partnership, one that allows both the government and corporations to get away with things they couldn't otherwise. [schneier.com...]

Better listen to SevenCubed. I'd hate to have to close a Featured Thread.

I wonder what the impact will be on NSA recruiting (on college campuses).

Who says the government isn't good at anything?