Forum Moderators: not2easy
Problem has occured when one (2) forum member has used another forum member (1) article in his web page.
(1) Has information compiled from sourses on internet as well as manufactuers dokument that he bought.
He claims to have the copyright to this information and the post he has written.
(2) Claim that he has the right to use information from his article as well as he used from manufactuer.
I am not sure what to say or do.
We created this forum to share and help eashother find materaial regarding the hobby we love.
This is a understanding we all have there.
Personally I don't care who does what with the info as long as it is enjoyed and to good use.
I try to name the sourses and put link's insteads of copy and paste.
(1) means that we should protect the info in the forum so it is not used elsewere.
I try to explain this is impossible to prevent copying 100%.
I can prevent downloads, but not screendumps, prints, read/type copying etc.
I suggested that we try to set good example with posting oregin and sources names etc to try and be as fair as possible.
I am lost here in these topic's and could use some advice on what to say and do about this matter.
Many warm wishes from Magnus.
As far as I can tell it is one member that is worried about this and it seems he has compiled information from the forum to make a book about it.
This is all good and well as far as members and forum is concerned, but it is a bit twofaced and created a ugly mess in form of a discussion that could knock the wind out of the spirit we created the forum of:
Sharing and fun!
Scraping the content of a forum to write a book is definitely in violation of the rights of both the site owner and the contributors who share, and it should be clearly set out in the Terms of Service or Conditions of Usage by the site owner right off the bat.
What does your TOS say about copyright or copying information?
If it means owner that is me.
I started this forum with the intent to share material and have a easy comfterble media to discuss the hobby we love with guy's in this hobby.
It ias alway's been very clear we share all info between us with few exeptions.
We try to find new dokumentation and information all the time and when we do we share the information and thoughts as best we can. This is the "Spirit" of the forum.
We all know stating sources etc is mandatory and the senior members are asked to set example. I as Admin/moderator tell the members to state source and provide link if possible.
If someone would have use of the info on a webpage, book or whatever that is of benefit to the hobby this is Ok by 99% of the members.
I will read a bit about "fair use".
By the way he has been acting it appears there is clear rules and laws about this, but I can't find it.
Thank you for the reply, Marcia.
I really appersiate this.
What or who is TOS?
TOS = "Terms of Service". A page posted prominently on your website telling your users what they can and cannot do on your site, and listing the consequences (usually denial of service) for violating the rules.
May or may not be legally-enforceable or legal, depending on where you and your user live.
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:49 am
Post subject: Guidelines.
There is not much to say about guidelines really, please use common sence, show respect and be polite I am sure all will be fine.
* Admin's and Moderators will moderate all content of this forum.
* Ad's and prices are debated in sales/wanted forums only!
* Joke's are OK, but No offending posts!
* Think carefully what you post. Use your best judgement.
If you post information from others please state the sourse/oregin.
* If there are questions, suggestions, complaints please feel free to tell me, I will do my best to solve the issue.
*The Admisitrators, Moderators will review all post and will read, edit and remove any and all post that include Ads, Links, Porn, racial statements and other information that it deems inappropriate. This will not be tolerated on the CSCF. This will also include removeal from the members list if needed. Please use common sence when making post. This site is viewed by members of all ages and gender. It's up to each and all of us to keep this site clean and report any information that is inappropriate to the Admisistrator/Moderators. It will be delt with as soon as possible and taken care of.
*The purpose of the CSCF is to share information regarding any and all chainsaws, from its history, operation, repair and restoration. If you have any information that you would care to share on this forum, feel free to do so. It will be appreciated by all registered members. If you have information regarding these old saws that you feel you do not want to share among the registerd members, then do not post it on the CSCF and keep it private. Once information is posted, you must realze that it can be freely used by all registerd members on this forum, unless you state otherwise in your signiture. Then No information can be used without your expressed approval to those who would like to use it.
*Information from this CSCF used on "other internet websites or pages" should be acknowleged as to it's source as a common courtesy and to protect against Copyright infringements. But the informaiton you post here can be freely exchanged and used by registered members on this forum, unless it is expressly stated in your signiture that it is copyrighted and not to be used.
Magnus, Administrator/Owner of CSCF.
_________________
Information from this CSCF used on "other internet websites or pages" should be acknowleged as to it's source as a common courtesy and to protect against Copyright infringements. But the informaiton you post here can be freely exchanged and used by registered members on this forum, unless it is expressly stated in your signiture that it is copyrighted and not to be used.
This paragraph is problematic. It implies that merely linking back to the source is enough to protect you or your members against claims of copyright infringement. It isn't.
You must promptly remove any posts that are copied without permission from elsewhere, and respond quickly to any accusations of copyright infringement. Otherwise you will be opening yourself up to the possibility of legal action, and all the expense that entails.
I thought the info posted by a member to forum could be quoted like you just did with in the forum without difficulty's?
I will make this statement a bit more clear.
How about:
Information from CSCF used on other internet websites or pages is not allowed without written consent by the author.
This is out of common courtesy and to protect against Copyright violations.
The iformaiton written in posts here is under wrighters copyright.
It can be quoted within forum without authors permission.
Problem is we want people to be able to use the information freely without any claims or strings attached.
Any one reading my info is free to enjoy this in any way possible, print, copy, book etc. I am happy to share.
One out of the 100 regulars has another opinion in this matter.
How do I make it clear all info can be freely used with exeption of one or two members?
You can't. And your announcement, or even if were in your TOS, doesn't immune others who publish materials from intellectual property complaints by the original authors. The law is the law, and a private agreement doesn't make the law null and void, it still stands and is enforceable.
It is not easy to do good here in the world.
Well we will try to state sourses and next time this happends I will contact the parties, if I get to know about it before it gets angry and agrivating to all.
I had contact with all senior members and top posters.
We all agree with one exeption, and he has nothing to argue about as the matter is resolved.
This copyright thing is very hard to grasp for me, as we wish to share the info, not keep it to one owner.
It is not easy to explain.
I don't fully understand how this copyright thing works, but I will try to explain how the CSCF forum works.
It is like when you try to write a song for the radio.
You like it and sing it to yourself in the shower, on the road in your car and at the party along with your best friends. Evrybody likes it and enjoy it!
Do you stop them all and say: Quiet! You need my permission!
It is not worth it, better let them enjoy it! Let them sing it in the car, chower, church, party's were ever..
On the forum there are bits and pieases here and there all over the place. Compiling these in to a articke involves a lot of searshing and work. One bit is found in a closet in Austrailia. A manual in Japan of a product made in Sweden on Swedish. Another member finds the product in Germany, one is found in US, but both are diffrent from the one seen in Italy. A member in Brasil is on vacation in Norway and finds a sales broshour in Swedeish on this product.
One member in Finland has a Uncle that has a third version and some parts extra. This is all figured out during a three year period with a post here and there now and then.
The information in its bits and pieases is inconclusive hard to grasp and in practice useless if it is not compiled in to a article so we can see and compare easyer. The fact's are not from the member it is from manufactuer's 25-75 years ago, most company's are not existing anymore and info is shaddered all over the world in bits and pieases.
Evry day new info and litteratour comes out in public and we get more understanding and see better at times.
We try to collect all info we can in to one place were it has a chance to make some sence if it get's the attension.
Even if I could find the time it is not very fun as it comes new info all the time.
The way we have this set up all can freely use the info and often find details, look from other angles, comment, add, rewiew, etc.
This makes qualety of the artcle so much more!
Who is to get ownership and credit when there is bit's and peases from 50 diffrent persons reseach, all useless one by one, but priceless together?
The members all share and enjoy this. The guy who threw a fit got parts of the info in the article from the guy who used a part of his article on his private page.
It is deleted, matter is resolved, but I still don't understand how to go further.
What we need is a disclamer so that it is clear to all members that any info posted on the forum is free to use in any way shape or form the member reading see fit.
Problem for the forum is not that one guy found this disturbing, it is the fact there is 1400 others that are not.
I understand this is a very hard thing to see, usually all wish to pretect the work and stuff we do, but for us it is not possible. One member alone can not find enugh info to make a decent article with information he has in his collection.
I am not sure how to explain this better in eng.
I have much easyer to explain in Swedish, but that is perhaps not easyer for you...
[edited by: MagnusM at 11:03 am (utc) on Dec. 23, 2007]
Frankly, based on your description, I'd imagine that a good percentage of the material on your site is in violation of somebody's copyright. You certainly can't post, say, a complete manual or sales brochure without permission, unless the copyright has expired.
The fact that you cannot contact the copyright holder or that the company is out of business does not cause the copyright to be invalid!
Now, the fact is, collectors of all sorts of things do this - usually quite openly - and copyright holders are dead, don't care, look the other way, etc.
So, you've got yourself a conundrum. Once you understand the law, it's easy to dismiss the complainers, but at the same time, not very politic.
You can simply tell them that they had no right to the material they are posting in the first place, so they certainly don't have a right to complain when it's copied by somebody else!
How to do that without admitting that violating copyrights is at the very heart of your site is your conundrum...
Keep in mind that I've written this with respect to U.S. copyright laws. The laws in your country may be different, and I'd urge you to read-up on them at your copyright office's website at least, if not contact an attorney.
Let's see if I understand this correctly....
If then someone use information from say 50 of these from same manufactuer and write a article based on info from these or use other form of material provided by manyfactuer to consumer , this is not correct?
How in the world can that be?
I will try to find out a bit more about this here as this is greek to me!
How can information intended for consumers use, wiolate copyrights?
I have a lot of ducuments here in my files that is directly given to me from manufactuer to use on forum.
I can't use any of it without violating copyright?
If there is a post made that is under posters copyright, like here on this forum the reply's made by members here and information from a publication is refered to or used to explain something like has been done here in this thread, is that too against copyright laws?
All litteratour that is on the subject we have is in beginning provided by manufactuer.
Sales brochours are used as adverticement as well as product information and the manufactuers are obligated to share this to potensial owners of the product.
Is there any place to read a bit more deeply about the legalety regarding forum's?
If there is a entire sales brochout posted it is posted by the owner who has bougt this.
That's still infringement, you have a right to the single copy that you are in possesion of. Anything else copied in it's entirety would be deemed infringing material. If for example you purchase a book you can't make 1000 copies of it just because you purchased one copy of it.
You could use snippets of paragraphs if for example you were giving a review of the book but you couldn't use it in it's entirety.
As for the argument between your members that's really none of your concern, if member 1 owns the rights to the copyrighted material he'll have to deal with it himself either through filing a DMCA or other legal channels.
I have a lot of ducuments here in my files that is directly given to me from manufactuer to use on forum.
That's different because they have given you permission to use them.
It is like when you try to write a song for the radio.
You like it and sing it to yourself in the shower, on the road in your car and at the party along with your best friends. Evrybody likes it and enjoy it!
Do you stop them all and say: Quiet! You need my permission!
If the RIAA could they would charge you for it. "Happy Birthday" is probably one of the biggest examples, if you use that in a public event you are supposed to pay a licensing fee. Technically even if you're singing in your own home I believe.
Ditto - no problem with using facts gleaned from copyrighted material to write an article.
If your users all get permission first, there's no problem.
I have read up on the Laws of "Upphovsrätt" (Sweden word for ©.
It is not diffrent from yours, but applyed diffrent.
It is conciddered a asset for both creator and user.
Let's see if I got this correct:
It is the posters responcebuilety to do the job in the article and take what ever complaints/violations there is.
They own rights and responcebuilety as soon as it is "Pubished".
It is the author that needs to find and deal with eventual violations to his ©...
Me/Forum can not be held responcible for content in a article written by a member.
Me/forum can not be responcible if a member copy's a other members text and use that without authors submission.
I can help mediate between two members or member/outsider as a third person, but not with any rights or legalety behind it to interfere...
Is this correct?
Of course you're responsible for copyright infringements that you allow on your site. It's your web host who the rightful copyright owner would contact to take the offending pages off-line, and it's your site a DMCA complaint would be sent to Google about (or Yahoo or MSN) to have the pages removed if they find violations of their copyright on your site.
[chillingeffects.org...]
If what member post is members by © and there is nothing obsene other reason to remove or edit, I also need to see to it the member has posted correct and not violating anybody's copyright's?
How in the world can I do that?
I am responcible for his copyright, but dont have the copyright? It is not his either it is actuially the web hotel's copyright?
That sounds really wieard...
How can there be more than one owner?
How can more than owner be responcible for copyright?
[edited by: MagnusM at 12:06 am (utc) on Dec. 25, 2007]
Let's use an illustration. If I've recently bought a book on, let's say, CSS or PHP and the book publisher provides accompanying downloads of additional information or tutorials or summaries and code samples, or an e-copy of the book, the copyright for that downloaded material or e-copy belongs to either the publisher or the book author, depending on their contract arrangement. It's for my own personal use and I've got no license or permission or right to use it for any other purpose, including copying and pasting any of it to a blog or forum.
If for example, I or someone else did that, the publisher would hold the forum responsible for allowing that violation and if the forum owner didn't remove it, they'd be subject to legal actions and could be required to pay damages for the infringement.
On the other hand, if a member posts their own original material, code, article or tutorials in a forum (as many do here at WebmasterWorld, for example), and someone else comes along and scrapes it and puts it on their own site, then they've violated the rights of both this board and the original poster by unauthorized publishing of materials they have no legal right to publish.
#10
No press releases, newsletters, web pages, or copyrighted content may be inserted into WebmasterWorld posts. Minor fair use excerpts of less than one paragraph (4 sentences) may be used if the content is publically available on the internet. All other forms of inserted content from press releases, newsletters, web pages, or any other copyrighted content placed into messages will be removed without exception. A link to the content is acceptable and appropriate.
You will not copy and retransmit any information out of these forums without first getting the permission of the original author of the message and a WebmasterWorld.com administrator.
And you can't argue with the fact that these forums are as "helpful to people" as it gets. But with respect for both the law and to the rights of all parties concerned, as well as safeguarding the future existence and welfare of the forums and all those who benefit from them.
But if I do this and the member that put this on forum claims it is his work and it does not violate anything.
He get's angry at me for deleting his work....
It could be he is correct too, how am I supposed to know or tell?
I suspect as has been stated here by thecoalman in his post that the member this is all about had infact more than one violation in the text he claims is under his ©.
He argued with another guy that used this to remove it from his page.
The member that started this is not much more educated in © than I am. He to can complain and either way I/forum get in troubble?
From what I understand there must be a complaint or simular to inform me or the poster to remove what ever is unwanted.
There is no way for me to sit and judge all text written to try and figure out if it is valid or not.
I don't have his information or know how he obtained it before he wrote the post.
Quote "Marcia" earlier in this thread.
"Knowledge" as such can't be copyrighted, but the creative form it takes and what's published can be; and copyright belongs right off to the creator, upon creation. And web pages do qualify as being published. Look up "fair use" for copyright. What's fair and within legal limits is around a 4-5 sentence short quote, with proper attribution to the source with a link to it.
End quote.
This I can understand.
I can also understand if Poster fail to pay attension to a complaint i get contacted and if I ignore or fail to correct it is reported to web host.
But what I can't understand is:
Quote "Marcia" earlier in this thread.
Of course you're responsible for copyright infringements that you allow on your site. It's your web host who the rightful copyright owner would contact to take the offending pages off-line, and it's your site a DMCA complaint would be sent to Google about (or Yahoo or MSN) to have the pages removed if they find violations of their copyright on your site.
End quote.
How can I or the owner of this site for ex. know if you did not copy this text from another forum poster, page or book?
There is not even a tiny chance anyone can have access to all this material in all forms of media and check evrything.
How am I to know if the original auther has problems with his material being used?
I would not...
If I post in public i don't share the info I wish to keep private....
I really don't care if the stuff I weright is used by others or even taken credit for. They can be millionares of it if the can, I will congratulate them for it.
If a book get's published in my fieald of interest and I have text used in it I would be first in line for that book.
It is just meaningless fragments till it is compiled and worked in to a bigger thing.
Would I claim ownership of a piease of text in that book that is compiled by hundreds more like mine? NO, I would not.
The text I have is useless alone...
Oh, you can't. Can you imagine what kind of time and effort it would take to check out if there were dozens or hundreds (or even thousands) of posts a day? That's why there's such a thing as "Fair Use" - limit to a short excerpt with a link back to the original source.
That abides by and conforms to the letter and the spirit of the law, while still providing value in terms of information and resources. But of course, anyone is certainly free to run their website, forums or otherwise, however they choose to or choose not to, in spite of whatever the law says (or their intellectual property attorney, if they consult with one).
If you mean postings that "look" legit, you can usually tell to a good degree by how they're written, who they're posted by, by examining the "posting history" and longevity of the poster, etc. Then, there are ways to do a bit of checking around for what seems suspicious - but that's very time intensive. Another thing is that posters can be asked where the materials originated.
[edited by: Marcia at 6:27 am (utc) on Dec. 25, 2007]
