Re KISS

I've bookmarked the 'Recent Posts' link at the top of this page. I scroll down the page and open all threads that have a title which interests me, regardless of which forum they are posted in.

That's how I noticed this thread.

Me Three ... been doing it that way for years.

However, the number of posts and members has diminished. Part of that can be attributed to FB, but more likely it is members dying off, particularly those who actually participated daily.

Meanwhile, UGC does not have the same serp love it once had ... fewer folks outside the forum can even see a listing that might entice them to come play.

Only the strong survive. It is unlikely that any new forum of the caliber of WW has a fighting chance on the web... nearly all who might be interested are already locked into FB or the comments sections (those that still work) on MSM/Entertainment sites.

The recent (this year) fold in of SEOCHAT has brought in new members and perhaps similar acquisitions in the future can keep that inflow going. This might increase the number of topics... but growth of any kind is preferable to zero growth.

As for knowledge.... WW has that in spades. Sadly, the kids out there, the potential members possible, are already convinced they know it all ... until they need an answer! :)

I suppose the facelift of all dancing jiggly visuals and audio might entice some to play, bt PLEASE avoid that! I will stick around until I die or the site folds (at 70 I figure I am good for at least another 12 years, barring the unforeseen/unexpected)...

I like the point about avoiding a facelift; not adding dancing jiggly visuals.

There is one forum that I visit often that seems to have had a smaller decline than similar forums in the field. There are still 'old timers' posting there and a small batch of new ones. What gets me is that the site looks very 2000s-ish and is based on vbadvanced version 3.2.3. I can't find out when that version was out but the site does look very dated. But that reminds me of the various 'ugly sites sell' posts here, especially Markus007s How I Made a Million in Three Months post.

ClosedForLunch's Recent Posts link suggestion. Depending on the board features I am sure there are many site visitors / regulars who may not know that feature exists. It would therefore make sense to display say the latest 10 / top 10 / hottest topics in tabs in a site-wide side panel. That could also help with SEO I guess.

I personally visit a generalist forum which is also quite political, usually visit / post daily. I also visit a widget forum which has masses of UGC and widget reviews and the like, it is a category killer - definately the best site on the net for widget information and reviews, I visit and post there daily also in my own time. I do visit fb every few days but I don't really like the experience.

In work hours, I use LinkedIn and WebmasterWorld - but not much else.

There hasn't really been a decline in my own forum use. I still find value in them. Even my son who is 20 also visits Reddit but has given up on fb.

PS, it is very noticeable to me that during UK morning hours WebmasterWorld is very quiet. I don't know why but UK member's participation seems down activity wise at the moment.

For a forum to win against facebook it needs to be either very specialised or very well established.

I'm not actually on facebook, but have heard complaints about it being moment orientated making it can be difficult to find information a bit later on.

Forget contests - that's what forums do just before the admin moves to another country and the thing shuts down. Doesn't inspire confidence.

Fora value began to fade as many members who built industry reps first on these broader reach fora (if not earlier on IRC, listserv, etc.) such as WebmasterWorld and secondly via conference presence/celebrity took their influence to own brand building blogs a decade to a decade and a half ago.

Bleeding/cutting edge contemplations/discussions shifted to private group conversation channels where ideas wouldn't be immediately outed (often incorrectly as misunderstood) to hype some individuals brand (in)competence.

Blogs took experienced contributors away and captured prospective audiences - community wisdom splintered and the wider conversation moved elsewhere (blog articles and comments). There being only so much attention/time available.

Simultaneously many/most webdev fora (as webdevs and SEOs generally) became Google rather than web focussed. Chicken? Egg?

All that I see of remaining value in WebmasterWorld, for instance, is the broad based reaction to webdev news. Technical subjects that are raised 'as new' are typically 5 to 10 years past best implementation date, most often posted because of a mention in mainstream media!

When intermediate (let alone advanced) concepts/behaviours are raised there is little to no conversational uptake beyond the same one or two members. This means that fora members generally are less and less likely able to compete, which in turn means fora to which they belong/contribute become increasingly irrelevant to current events.

I quite enjoy fora and regret their fading to oblivion. But I know not how to do more than keep mentioning that which is not Google, that which takes investment of time and effort, that which is not cut-n-paste, that which is not following the bloggeratti and influencer with something to sell...

Hasn't made an impression in the past 4-years... I'd be thrilled to be able to proclaim once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more except I'm uncertain there is a breach in the wall of willful ignorance to once more unto...

Note: for non webdev fora constraint is probably the value, small and niche might survive even prosper; I see little to no future in general or broad fora as that simply plays into the surplus (time/participation dilution and overload of choice) of the web.

Treasured words @iamlost ... yes, the play by play has diminished and with good cause. Back in the heyday we were all seeking knowledge and expansion. For some it was chasing a goal that had a "g" as the first letter. Then came the "CHANGE" when that letter began to bite back, take away, issue rules etc. Folks rose to the occasion and shared some thoughts ... and in sharing saw reductions to them because some knowledge shared came back to bite their a$$ets when those helped ran to the races.

These days the commentary is correction to bad form, greeting and working with newbies (no threats), and maintaining a connection to both the past and the future. RARELY is anything offered in more than general brush strokes, and some have also fallen behind the curve of code/trend/marketing. Others are locked into 2002 and just can't get to the present, hoping for a return to happier times.

How much of all the above has anything to do with forums? Not much. A forum is a method of web stuff.... in an of itself just a bunch of lines executed by processors and jetted out over connections using protocols handled by third parties over systems so diverse that even a play book would be thousands of pages long just to figure out Point A to Point B ... and not a word said.

The real thing missing is the original adventure, the wonder, the "new" ... and what we have these days is young folks (no disrespect!) who have middle school and high school computer classes seeking the myth of wealth on the web (g's original sales pitch remains golden!) and the cookie cutter (cms) and cut-n-paste and (ahem) scrapers, bad actors and gitrichekwik seeking an answer for "just one thing" and then off with no thanks (if it was actually offered ... the long terms folks have figured things out by this time) and...

By so little things can die. Or live.

Some of these things can continue gang busters. Others are doomed because there are no more true players, only takers and the impatient---who already know all EXCEPT that "one little thing"...

Sounds like doom and gloom, but it is not, just a recognition that the "early daze" (sic) has passed and reality is the current method of operation.

All the above is not linked specifically to WW ... just about every forum out there has gone through the same changes ...

That said, the best is yet to come. We just have to be here for that to happen!

Some have said that Google ranks forums lower than other forms of content. Any thoughts on that?

I prefer forum content and have to add the word "forum" to my searches in order to find it.

There may be a decline in overall usage. But I find that posts, not just in this forum but others that I frequent, are more informative these days. Also, moderators are on top of their game and whereas they used to make the mistake of giving suss members a chance, they have learned not to let things go so far that they upset everyone.

My guess is that web users are more mature and yes, there are more alternatives to choose from for amusement today, but trolls are few. So we no longer see forum "addicts".

Some have said that Google ranks forums lower than other forms of content. Any thoughts on that?

We've known for some time that g (in particular) has deprecated UGC, and forums and blogs fall into that category. How deeply that goes we are still learning!

There are three major problems with fora (and search results):
1. they are no longer alone in discussing their topics. There are blogs, subReddits, even, with some subjects, mainstream media, etc. The competition for conversation on just about any topic is exponentially greater than back in the glory days of yore.

2. the experts that grew with and drew visitors to fora have largely left, often to become competitors (see 1-above), without being replaced by sufficient current equivalents.

Without some base level of conversations between a multiplicity of experts the conversation defaults to some lowest denominator level of competence.

3. the design of fora is an ever growing cascade of pages, increasing thin or duplicates (see 2-above) that individually and cumulatively draw fewer and fewer backlinks; that many blogs and fora default(ed) to not allowing external links or to requiring they be rel=nofollow exacerbates the problem.

So there is more competition, there are fewer conversations/pages of quality information, and thus less reason for anyone to link out to them... fora have largely increasingly failed in both value production and marketing. Sitting on one's laurels is concession to failure.
Note: there are often structural aka architectural reasons that fora (and blogs) have link value flow difficulties...

Search query results are but a symptom of the malaise. Put brutally: most fora are no longer the driving force, no longer the expert locus, of their niche. They are, as the forum in Rome, dilapidated remnants populated by tourists.

My forums are still doing good. Increase in membership over the years, increase in posts, and an increase in likes!

I'm running specialised topics. For one forum there are some Facebook groups in direct competition. Facebook will always win for traffic, but members complain that things aren't organised very well over there so they tend to come back for information they need to find.

Forums went through a dark patch a few years ago with the popular software annoying the members. I followed some folk who appreciated speed and usability and I think that made a big difference. I've always had a politics ban and a lot of members appreciate that. My forums are places for learning and encouraging others to learn. the bitching can be done on Facebook.

Forums are dying, and many still alive are mostly ill places with strong manifestations of:

- Terrible sales of schemes and promotions
- Forum members with terrible education
- Preference for controversial topics including naysayers, contrarians, etc.
- Increase of poor mental health and mental illnesses <-- don't underestimate this
- Lonely people looking for attention or companionship
- Fake accounts with fake profiles, WAIT: fake lives... people building an artificial online profile alternate to reality
- Lots... and LOTS of compulsion

Compulsion means unhealthy interaction: people reading and posting because they have developed an unhealthy need for attention or interaction, it's not about the content, it's not about the topic, it's about them getting attention (positive or negative) getting into unhealthy discussions. Consider a thread around here discussing how most people online nowadays show traits of getting dumber, and consider some refusing to believe this.

There was a thread discussing a bit of this on a forum having a branch about psychology and socializing. The internet was born with academic interests for sharing, but it slowly became the living place for people who don't have a healthy social life or have no social life at all. The increase of people having mental illnesses interacting online is noticeable, on some forums (depending the type) IF YOU read long enough and have good memory you will actually see their own testimonials having mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, diff levels of autism or just psychotic episodes. Sounds terrible... it is. You might say "well that might be true on that forum" well not exactly, many people from those forums where they talk about their issues ARE IN FACT active members of other forums unrelated to psychology or socialization.

The thing is, most forums nowadays... get nowhere. "People are the product" but anyway there are few reasons to stay there and find legit, healthy reasons to be part of most communities. I've been part of several forums since 1998-2000, most have changed in unexpected ways, I dare to say the forums I have seen staying not just alive but actually with more healthy traits are those with practical implications: forums where people DO things. Electrical and electronic forums are still very positive, with people showing human traits, positive socializing and good manners, same as some other tech forums I visit (like laser pointer forums) with strong community and positive engagement with new users. Those are still free, but similar in having complex stuff. Easy forums are a mess, an absolute mess and still changing progressively in the same direction.

Webmaster forums? most are garbage (except this one: Webmaster Forum) but sadly there is little activity compared to the past. I don't want to be negative regarding this topic but I'm not sure focusing on keeping forums alive is a great goal, it just takes too much work. I'm pretty sure many people are too focused seeing the world using the monitor as a window, but are unable to see the people as people and their human interaction as patterns of behavior, there is little to say about that, if they can't see it, well they just can't, perhaps they are part of that social group too.

There was also a discussion on a forum on why more and more people with severe mental issues are adopting pets. That was an ugly thread because many are unable to see it and unable to understand the amount of mental illness taking place in society, workplaces and the internet, it is enough to say people working in the industry (veterinarians) can tell you increasing horror stories of this trend. Well, sometimes it is easier for people to understand some search engine algo is producing some effect rather than human behavior producing a trend.

FR: Facebook is the evil giant behind all this

I'm not sure. A lot of people migrate from one forum to another, FB consumes a lot of people's time and interaction yes, but from where I'm standing I'm not sure it is such a strong competition to forums. I don't think that would be the case with being a webmaster (I mean considering FB consuming people time against Webmaster Forum, as an example).

What to do?

Some great forums have implemented great tools to engage readers and increase interaction such as:

- Likes / thanks / reactions
When people don't need to post anything to approve or dislike a comment. They can just hit a button to like, thanks or in some cases a range of reactions like "wtf, laugh, wink" etc.

- Notifications
Online forum notifications such as "X has quoted you on Z discussion", or "X has reacted -wtf- to your comment on Z discussion". In the past you interacted on forums and it was up to you to stay tuned to the discussions and read over and over the threads or "who posted last", people could be burning you alive without you noticing it. Such described functions serve as notifications that make discussions better, more fun, more useful.

- Voting
Such a nice feature for online discussions.

Mobile? there are lots of topics that are fun and interesting to discuss but having people engaged using mobile phones dramatically changes the reactions or limits to interact. Sometimes people just compress their reactions because they can't afford to write long texts (like this one) and thus, some react this way:

- Oh... ok I will log in and reply later (many will fail to do so or will loose the interest over time)
- Post compressed usually exaggerated reaction
- Post oneliners

"We" (me along with people who work online, campaigns and communication) were discussing how at least in our region many young people treat most communication channels as a chat, many times their post make no sense (a lot of this is explained by "millennial experts", communication changed, even if it makes no sense a lot of people acknowledge such changes as if it was a normal thing, it is not. Little discussions can be built on top of line liners.

Part of the problem with forums, I think, is that the members tend to write poor quality titles.

(or titles written are changed by well-meaning ...)

Been there. :)

This was predicted 10 years ago but it seems that since 2017 there have been quite a few postings / articles on this subject and thus the decline seems to be accelerating.

You might find interesting the loss on attention span on most people nowadays.

Both in communication circles (writers, editors and chief editors) and also in the hiring field (human resources, job positions and work environment) it's not new lots of youngsters today will get lost on any text beyond 5 lines, been described by a classic behavior on millennial workers. The amount of people complaining about official communication at jobs being too long has increased, or it is just failed communication.

When I compare forum interaction from the past + forum interaction by adult people (from the past) today VS classic new workers, it's abysmal. They use twitter and now instagram. Checking their communication (when they allow it) it's just filled with short comments and stuff like TLDR, BTW, IDB, SJC, WHWE, SHSHW smile smile emoticon, etc. A vast part of their written behavior is based as I said before on being naysayers or contrarians: appearing just to express everyone else is wrong without ever contributing with anything with depth.

I used to discuss this with an ex coworker and she refused to accept what appears to be lack of intellectual skills nowadays, until she noticed the changed on the people she was training: increasingly, every year, it was difficult to make them understand the concepts they have been teaching for years, and they would fail over and over on procedures. The amount of people working there training people started to painfully say "people are getting dumber", this is not new. It's difficult to engage people on meaningful discussions today.

Consider this forum, remember the pattern (if you can remember) when most posts on the threads were in the shape of "you are doing it wrong", "I'm doing great", hey, crisis hit, many sites went dead and you would see over and over post in the same form "well I'm not hit, doing great, best month ever" etc etc, then remember those nicknames and try to see if you can find any meaningful contribution. After such wave of "lack of content and discussions" many threads and areas of the forum started dying and remain dead till this day. The forum members who actually contribute today are few.

We can count posts by number yes, but without quality content people come, read and leave, simple as that.

, I'll say @Iamlost covered good points about this.

Reversing?

you can't discuss a solution without really looking at the problem or causes, good points were mentioned here. I would only add: lots of people are increasingly lonely, meetings seem to be kind of effective in some forums.

A case? reference?

One of the largest forums in my region (a car and variety forum) had gazillion users, you could post a topic and get 50 replies in 10 minutes and not just about cars, also about computers, technology, etc. The forum is dead today, the reasons?

- Some people blame the moderators failing to remove the trash and problematic forum users. Me being part of that forum since 2007... I have to agree.
- Some people say the owner vanished and others took power places, well, the presence of the owner and founder (who made the forum) yes was actually needed and important, things were not the same anymore when this guy left.
- Contrarians... there were great threads, yet they would get murdered by people against anything and against everything. Tell me how difficult it is to resurrect a good thread. Gold posters can smell a forum dying, specially when they see the lack of commitment to keep things clean, some people take it as a personal offense and leave, and yes the forum is not the same without them.
- Lots of people there blame FB, I disagree... why? I know in person a vast amount of users from that forum (doing business) and the long conversations about how this and that failed are the reasons they refuse to ever log in and participate, me? same as they say.
- A basket of lies and fake success. Well this happened on other forums, happened there too: people with fake lives and imaginary friends talking about great success that isn't real, I don't know why they do it. Doing business got the change to meet some of them and other forum members where right: it's people living an imaginary life focused only on making other people look bad, that's sick.

- Copy paste

. I hate it... that forum along with others became the playground for news reports, people or moderators posting news from the car or tech industry. See, most people already visit tech sites, no need to copy and paste the news, such practices are a direct message as "this forum is dead we have no content". It was different when people posted "hey what do you think about the new XX?" instead of copy+++paste an excerpt of the news posted elsewhere, you can also see the lack of participation on those threads, reversing the effects? ask opinions instead of allowing people to post news or bits of news reports.

Be direct...
Try to be smart and detect the right time to ask people what do they hate about the forum, trust me they will tell you straight up, I've seen it over and over on diff places, you might not like it but they will do it, names will appear or they might tell you "because it is boring". The thing about boring and how communities work is quite simple... while some people will try to learn or find amusement on your forum because they need to be entertained, others will try to keep it alive. Many refuse to let the forums die, they are your friends. But in the same simplicity... some people in forums are there because they enjoy reading content from A, B, C forum members. It is often underestimated that whenever forum member B leaves... others follow and also leave. At the end of the day it's people who make the forum, keep the people, keep the forum (as long as your audience can actually read).

I will not get tired of reminding people how parents now give cell phones or laptops to their kids and so you have online people who can't handle the content, this has been happening for years with toys, same thing is happening now with mentally ill individuals, it's cheap to give them a toy to play around because nobody wants to deal with them. And you will see them online.