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Forum lawsuit threats?

Member threatens to sue for banning

         

mfisher

4:57 pm on Sep 13, 2007 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



This is my first post here. It looks like the place to come for an answer. I'm hoping someone here has some input on a situation. I'm not looking for legal representation right now, nor will I hold anyone accountable for their opinion :) I'd simply like some input and perspective on this situation.

I'm a moderator on a private sports forum that is owned by a rather large entity. The forums I participate in are in a sub-group under the large entity's umbrella. "Premium" membership runs around $100/year, but one can join the free boards without cost.

We've had one Premium member who has consistently been negative, insulting, disruptive and mean-spirited. But over the last couple of years attempts to ban him have failed. This week I found out why.

The troublemaker is an attorney. Apparently he's threatened to sue the larger entity if they were to cancel his Premium membership and ban him. The news is a little shocking, since in all my years of being a moderator or admin on a number of message boards I've never heard of anyone threatening to sue if they are banned.

But in this case it seems to have worked. The admin says he can't afford to fight in court, even to get the suit dismissed as frivolous. And apparently the larger company isn't willing to do anything either.

The result is a definite degradation in the quality of discourse in the Premium section, thanks to either this attorney or those who are so angry at him they can't resist taking his bait. Now we're monitoring a thread discussing moderators "over-moderating" (actually the only person we've over-moderated was this clown, but the general members only see a deleted blank and don't know the reasons or what was deleted).

Nothing wrong with a good spleen venting, but it's pretty obvious that the long-term affect of this troublemaker's behavior is not a positive one for the board culture.

Any of you ever hear of someone suing over a ban? (I couldn't find anything close by Googling). What's your opinions on a situation like this?

Thanks in advance.

LifeinAsia

5:25 pm on Sep 13, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



It sounds like there are some things to do going forward.

1) Rewrite the terms of service and state that the entity has the right to refuse membership to anyone. Also that they have the right to cancel the membership of anyone who breaks the Terms of Service. (You might want to say that the membership fee will be refunded at a pro-rated amount.)

2) Make sure you have a clear Terms of Service that prohibits abusive posts, etc. You can tailor it to wards his behavior, but don't make it too obvious that you are using him as nan example.

When his 1-year membership is completed, just refuse to renew.

It won't solve the problem in the meantime, but should help you later.

Apparently he's threatened to sue the larger entity if they were to cancel his Premium membership and ban him.

Has he ever been stupid enough to communicate this in writing? If so, there may be some recourse with the local police (doubtful, but may be worth exploring).

justgowithit

5:48 pm on Sep 13, 2007 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



You'd probably have to fight fire with fire in a situation like this. He may be bluffing, but if you're going to call his bluff you'd better be ready to follow through.

It's too bad you don't have any friend/relatives that would help you out pro bono.

rocknbil

6:27 pm on Sep 13, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Has he violated **any** of your stated policies?

Return his money, kick his a** to Mars. What basis does he have for a suit? What proof do you have this isn't a 16 year old steeped in pubescent angst?

What people seem to forget about the Internet - when you go to a site, you are still in their house. People seem to be under the impression the "Free speech, I know my rights" rules apply everywhere. Unless you're denying them services, it's your rules.

If all else fails, **surely** the board software can make his rantings invisible to everyone but him, no? It would probably be months or years before he caught on to that one. :-)

mfisher

8:49 pm on Sep 13, 2007 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Thanks for the replies. Let's see if I can do this freehand without a quote feature :)

1. Yes, we're sure he's a lawyer. His RL identity has been outed on the boards. The posts were removed but we can't control the subsequent PM traffic. His law firm even has a web site with his picture in it.

2. The TOS is pretty clear about abuse and harrassment, and has that handy caveat about cancelling accounts for whatever reason the company wants. Although, to be fair, in another court case involving Linden Lab (owner of the game Second Life), an attorney sued them for money he lost when his account was banned for cheating and the first thing the judge did was berate the TOS. (Google Marc Bragg and Second Life if you're interested).

3. Apparently this has now travelled up the ladder far enough that the parent company's legal beagles are investigating. I'm hoping they drop the green flag on banning this idiot. Otherwise he's liable to come out feeling even stronger.

4. The board is made up mostly of college grads, a great many of whom attended one school's law school. I've suggested this to the admin - that surely one of those posters could do a little pro bono and save him the grief.

5. The board software does have an individual "ignore" feature, but not a "sequester" feature like I've seen on others. The software was developed in house so it's not quite like most of the php or vbulletin stuff we see running around.

Developing...

RandomDot

3:37 pm on Sep 20, 2007 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Free speech is an undeniable right and should be allowed under any circumstances and in any environment. But as far as I can tell from your posts, he's not uploading audio files and not actually speaking, but writing...so..

To be more serious:

There are numerous cases on the internet where people have been banned from various forums for various reasons, and has replied by threatening with everything from legal cases, to dos attacks, to flame wars on other websites... and nobody cared, and nobody was successfull in doing anything to a websites right to block anything and all they see fit.

So, in short, you should have the right to cancel his membership under the ToS which he has agreed to in order to be a premium member. If you want to be nice, you can even refund his subscription money for that year. Or just wait for it to expire and refuse to renew it.

What is he going to make a lawsuit about? - That he has made legal threats in order to maintain a privilege? (in some countries, that's actually against the law) The organization behind the website has the and any right to remove the privilege of being a premium member and restrict access to a forum or the whole website for that matter.

Just because it's for sale, doesn't mean it can be bought by anybody. It's a privilege he is buying, and not a bottle of milk.

Gibble

3:57 pm on Sep 20, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



IANAL, but...

Just like you can ban a person from a brick and mortar establishment, a website is a private place and you can deny access on the same basis.

RandomDot

7:47 pm on Sep 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



This is a matter of opinion: But a website is not a private place if it encourages people to visit it and be a part of it - then it becomes an online community, and the owner/management becomes the state which supervises it. Thus enforcing laws, regulations and so on in order to control the community in whatever way they want it to be, naturally under the laws of the country the owners reside in...

But this doesn't change the owners right to ban and deny access to the community website - they can still do it without any problems whatsoever, unless there is a legislation above them which has actually made it illegal to do so.

So, in short if the owners of a website think that somebody should not be a part of it anymore or have any access to it - they are free to do so. But a website is not a private place if it's public available.

Everything is a matter of definitions and details anyways, have fun,

dauction

9:47 pm on Sep 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



reset all members so they auto "ignore" on .. ;)

This accomplishes 2 things..he can rant and harass all he wants ..but like a tree falling in forest...no one going to hear him

and 2 it stops other members from bickering back and forth and instigating him .

AND technically ..he isnt banned :)

bcc1234

10:38 pm on Sep 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



reset all members so they auto "ignore" on .. ;)

Wouldn't that actually give him a valid claim for a complaint?

He paid for the ability to post with a reasonable assumption that his posts would be accessible to other members.

The company made the posts impossible for the other members to read and by doing so took away a benefit (arguably the most important one) of the membership.

Wouldn't it be like me selling you some item and then just giving you an empty box in hopes that you'll never open it to realize that I didn't actually deliver the item you ordered even though you believe that you have it?

Marcia

12:07 am on Sep 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Put something in the TOS about members' posts being pre-moderated if certain TOS provisions are violated (like a three-strikes rule), and put him on pre-moderation so his posts can be edited or disallowed before anyone but mods can see them.

It's a standard feature with VBulletin for problem members, which makes it a fairly common procedure. If it takes modifying your software, it's worth the developers' time to do rather than dealing with the other hassles.

rogerd

12:59 am on Sep 22, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member



>>He paid for the ability to post

I'd definitely refund a paid member's money if I banned him or otherwise restricted his powers. Even though he violated the TOS, it's not worth fighting about some pro-rated membership payment. Give him his money back, and show him the door.

vincevincevince

6:49 am on Sep 24, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



First of all, apologise* and refund his money as well. That'll make it harder for him to take any future action.

Next, since this is premium-only... and he only has one account... make all his posts visible only to himself. Nobody will take his bait and nobody will get offended. He'll get bored and disappear.

When you notice a sensible post, make it publically visible. Keep up the illusion. It's nothing but pre-moderation.

* When apologising to a lawyer, never use words which indicate you are or were in the wrong!

Here's another idea:
Start a new member account and put forward an opposing view to this guy, and do it with a vengence. Bait your real troll and get him on your side in the fight against the fake troll. Befriend him in the battle against the fake troll and lead him to feel valued as part of the community rather than only getting attention through his trolling behaviour. Discuss appropriate measures to deal with the fake troll with him and in so doing help him gain a new perspective on his own actions.

but the general members only see a deleted blank and don't know the reasons or what was deleted

So, leave a reason by reference to one of your TOS. WebmasterWorld does it!

JS_Harris

9:54 am on Sep 24, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I was faced with a similar situation in 2004.

I have to assume that some of the terms he accepted when joining include penalties for repeated disruptive behavior.

Warn him when he's out of line. Follow through when he stays out of line. Document his behavior and stay 100% on firm middle ground in your decisions and everything will be fine.

He may sue, he'll likely be repaying your fees if he does. If he's a "smart" lawyer he's going to have legal fees of his own by not representing himself. He's already caused negative effects to your forum it sounds like and you can place a dollar value on that as well in your responsive declaration.

People don't spend thousands in court to win 100.00 in fees back, unless they have mental issues to begin with which usually ends up working against them anyway. I'm no lawyer but my best advice is continue on as usual and be less easy on him, he's a lawyer with a rep to keep and should have known better.

Worst case scenario, he pulls off a quick judgment in his favor. If that happens you have a LOOOOONG list of things to do before it's final which will take years and its your right to do them all. Along the way you'll render the issue moot anyway.

More people need to take a lesson from the dock handlers of the 30's and 40's. When a shipment came in, of lettuce for example, the dock handlers would delay moving the containers of companies late on paying their dock fees until everything else was done. By the time the lettuce was moved it was rotting and worthless. The dock handlers couldn't be blammed for anything and companies paid up their dock fees in advance before long.

Just because you can sue doesn't mean you should. He may learn that the hard way, many do.

JS_Harris

9:57 am on Sep 24, 2007 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



First of all, apologise* and refund his money as well. That'll make it harder for him to take any future action.

Vincevincevince thats common sense talking. In a court mode of mind do no such thing, it's an admitance of guilt at best and it will not change his legal rights in any way regardless.